Question:
> In my area, the health dept does not want softeners hooked to septics but > actually recommends leaching pits for softener discharge. I just go with > what the health dept. says to do – I really do not have any other choice > for insurance or licensing reasons. And since the health dept has nothing > to gain from making these recommendations (other than their own > inspectors’ licenses), I don’t see why they would be so strongly against > it for no reason. > Lori Denis
So they don’t want them connected to the septic but they don’t require, they reccomend, leaching pits? Do they actually prohibit the connection to the septic and do they say the ’salt’ negatively impacts the bacteria and operation of the septic or not? I’m equally sure they have a reason but I’d bet no one in the Dept really knows what it is. I also think that no one in the Dept. has questioned the reason for some time or checked to see if they are correct. In the mean time, IMO, they simply keep putting out the same wrong information. I do understand your position, a licensed contractor having to work with that Dept.. I just don’t think you should apply your limited geographic area’s ways to the rest of the country without actual proof to support the position. Gary Quality Water
Response:
> We seem to have a difference of opinion on this topic. I gather by your > signing each post "Quality Water" that you are a supplier of softener > systems. I, on the other hand, am an installer of septic systems. We > highly recommend to our customers that they do not run their softeners > into the septic. This is based on our own experience and the advice of > the regulating agency in our area.
Your experience actually shows that the systems can’t accept 20-75 gallons of water every so many days or that as you call it, the brine is detrimental to the systems? As I’ve told you before your regulatory agency needs to renew its thinking. > Have a look at the situation from my standpoint. I have heard alot > reasons not to hook a softener to the septic and very few reasons to do > so. I think that it would take a pretty substantial and detailed study > from an unbiased party – ie not a water softener company – to convince me > that brine is in any way good for a septic. In my opinion, aside from my > reservations about putting brine into the tank, a softener puts an excess > load on the leaching bed and tank. Its simply better not to do it.
Ok and I’ll ask you to have a look at it from my industry’s POV. The customer wants the equipment to improve their water quality and it uses water that has to be dealt with in such a way as to not cause a problem such as dead vegetation or groundwater contamination or staining of the area where it is discharged (such as an iron filter or softener removing iron might). In all areas dry wells for such discharge are prohibited although existing are allowed to be used until they stop working. We suggest the best place is the septic unless there are obvious problems with that specific septic as opposed to digging an illegal dry well or ditch down to the woods separately or as part of the sump pump discharge. Where would you suggest that water is discharged to cause the fewest legal or other problems? I say legal due to a failed septic not being illegal, but the other choices are in most areas. As far as the "brine" charge goes. To my knowledge there has never been any proof developed that a softener discharge causes any harm to a septic system; especially the bacteria. Current concern is to the groundwater contamination of chloride from a softener. Yes I’ve probably heard all the reasons not to connect to the septic too and yet when studied, they are proved wrong. And if you won’t at least entertain my statements go look for newer information than you have. Some New England states removed their bans because of those studies. Although I’ve heard of some states issuing bans recently too, those concerned about groundwater contamination. Gary Quality Water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lori Denis > MJ Denis Bros Construction
Response:
In my area, the health dept does not want softeners hooked to septics but actually recommends leaching pits for softener discharge. I just go with what the health dept. says to do – I really do not have any other choice for insurance or licensing reasons. And since the health dept has nothing to gain from making these recommendations (other than their own inspectors’ licenses), I don’t see why they would be so strongly against it for no reason. Lori Denis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We seem to have a difference of opinion on this topic. I gather by > your > signing each post "Quality Water" that you are a supplier of > softener > systems. I, on the other hand, am an installer of septic systems. > We > highly recommend to our customers that they do not run their > softeners > into the septic. This is based on our own experience and the advice > of > the regulating agency in our area. > Your experience actually shows that the systems can’t accept 20-75 > gallons of water every so many days or that as you call it, the brine > is detrimental to the systems? > As I’ve told you before your regulatory agency needs to renew its > thinking. > Have a look at the situation from my standpoint. I have heard alot > reasons not to hook a softener to the septic and very few reasons to > do > so. I think that it would take a pretty substantial and detailed > study > from an unbiased party – ie not a water softener company – to > convince me > that brine is in any way good for a septic. In my opinion, aside > from my > reservations about putting brine into the tank, a softener puts an > excess > load on the leaching bed and tank. Its simply better not to do it. > Ok and I’ll ask you to have a look at it from my industry’s POV. The > customer wants the equipment to improve their water quality and it > uses water that has to be dealt with in such a way as to not cause a > problem such as dead vegetation or groundwater contamination or > staining of the area where it is discharged (such as an iron filter or > softener removing iron might). In all areas dry wells for such > discharge are prohibited although existing are allowed to be used > until they stop working. We suggest the best place is the septic > unless there are obvious problems with that specific septic as opposed > to digging an illegal dry well or ditch down to the woods separately > or as part of the sump pump discharge. Where would you suggest that > water is discharged to cause the fewest legal or other problems? I say > legal due to a failed septic not being illegal, but the other choices > are in most areas. > As far as the "brine" charge goes. To my knowledge there has never > been any proof developed that a softener discharge causes any harm to > a septic system; especially the bacteria. Current concern is to the > groundwater contamination of chloride from a softener. > Yes I’ve probably heard all the reasons not to connect to the septic > too and yet when studied, they are proved wrong. And if you won’t at > least entertain my statements go look for newer information than you > have. Some New England states removed their bans because of those > studies. Although I’ve heard of some states issuing bans recently too, > those concerned about groundwater contamination. > Gary > Quality Water > Lori Denis > MJ Denis Bros Construction
Response:
… >Fair enough but how do you actually know that in your case it’s ruled >out?
Yes – the local Health Officer (who has the power to deny occupancy) said so. No garbage disposal either. The next step is a package treatment plant (5 Gs +) >Infrequently or scheduled (as with a timer controlled softener etc.) >added water is not a problem to a septic system anymore than an extra >load of laundry or a couple friends etc. spending the weekend. If the >system can’t handle that water it is inappropriate for the site. It >can not then be said that the extra water is the cause.
I think a good modern water softener that regens infrequently would probably be okay. Our older home Sensimatic is a water hog. And the water around here is harder than God’s head, esp. at run off time. We go a long way to reduce water consumption at the cottage (the place in question) because as we tell any weekend guests "Sooner or later you are going to be swimming in it and drinking it!" Tom Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS? http://www.cottageliving.com
Response:
> … >Fair enough but how do you actually know that in your case it’s ruled >out? > Yes – the local Health Officer (who has the power to deny > occupancy) said so. No garbage disposal either. The next > step is a package treatment plant (5 Gs +)
So IOWs he really doesn’t know but thinks it’s not a good idea…. not the same as proof and no reason given. I’m argumentative and I’d push him to prove it or okay the installation, especially if you needed a softener. >Infrequently or scheduled (as with a timer controlled softener etc.) >added water is not a problem to a septic system anymore than an extra >load of laundry or a couple friends etc. spending the weekend. If the >system can’t handle that water it is inappropriate for the site. It >can not then be said that the extra water is the cause. > I think a good modern water softener that regens > infrequently would probably be okay. Our older home > Sensimatic is a water hog. And the water around here is > harder than God’s head, esp. at run off time.
Demand (metered) regeneration is nice but you may increase its efficiency by having a water analysis done and checking the current setup of the unit. Some folks still have the same setup now as they did when the 3 kids were home and had 2 friends sleeping over on weekends! Or others haven’t replaced worn out resin or are using zeolite which is much less efficient than new synthetic resins and they raised the salt doseage due to hard water breakthrough a few years ago…. > We go a long way to reduce water consumption at the cottage > (the place in question) because as we tell any weekend > guests "Sooner or later you are going to be swimming in it > and drinking it!"
Cottages are a bit different than a house septic system IMO due to the fact that many cabins etc. systems were installed when there were next to no regs and we didn’t know where not to put them or how to build them. My point is that a blanket statement that softeners should not be connected to a septic tank isn’t being fair to those with adequate systems that a softener etc. would not cause any problems with. Especially when due to a local dictate, inspector, or opinions against it, when those are in the vast minority and opposit from actual problem free installed connections. I addition to not being fair, those suggesting against the connection do not provide any workable solution that is legal and thereby IMO, may be causing more harmful discharges than they are preventing. I also think we need a standard defintition of ‘failure’ when talking about an on site septic system. To me ‘failure’ means no longer prevents bacteria from entering and contaminating the groundwater. Not that the toilets don’t flush or someone has to spend some money digging up their yard to pump out or rebuild/replace their system. I use that defintition due to the requirement for ‘perk’ tests which all septic systems are to have passed to be able to be built. Also I don’t know of anything that doesn’t need on going maintenance which I contend that pumping etc. is part of. Tom this reply is not just ‘to’ you, it’s also for others. Gary Quality Water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom > Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS? > http://www.cottageliving.com
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > … >IMO the part about the softener discharge simply isn’t true. I know >that many years ago it was thought to cause problems but since actual >studies were done bans against the connection to on site septic >systems have been removed. > Gary, I’m not disagreeing with you but I’ve read the studies and I’m > not convinced they should be the rationale to automatically hook up a > softener to the septic. There are a number of facts like the age of > the system, the field soil/substrate, holding tank size, etc. that > need to be considered. I know in our case, the limited dispersion > field and small tank clearly rules out a softener due to the added > water. YMMV
Fair enough but how do you actually know that in your case it’s ruled out? Infrequently or scheduled (as with a timer controlled softener etc.) added water is not a problem to a septic system anymore than an extra load of laundry or a couple friends etc. spending the weekend. If the system can’t handle that water it is inappropriate for the site. It can not then be said that the extra water is the cause. Gary Quality Water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom
Response:
… >IMO the part about the softener discharge simply isn’t true. I know >that many years ago it was thought to cause problems but since actual >studies were done bans against the connection to on site septic >systems have been removed.
Gary, I’m not disagreeing with you but I’ve read the studies and I’m not convinced they should be the rationale to automatically hook up a softener to the septic. There are a number of facts like the age of the system, the field soil/substrate, holding tank size, etc. that need to be considered. I know in our case, the limited dispersion field and small tank clearly rules out a softener due to the added water. YMMV Tom Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS? http://www.cottageliving.com
Response:
I believe these products are money down the drain. I pump every three years but have a neighbor that has never pumped (20 years) because it is nearly impossible to access. Risk of not pumping is plugging drain field. I always watch cleanout and last one, service man pointed out wax like deposite that he attributed to solid detergents – we switched to liquid. Frank
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Got an email about some enzyme type product called SPC to maintain > adequate levels of septic system bacteria. I’ve been concerned for > some time now about harsh detergents and fat, etc. breaking down > bacteria in my system. I keep reading conflicting information about > pumping out systems, whether it’s even necessary, etc. My gut feel is > that the "appropriate" way to address this is for the system to work as > it’s naturally supposed to – i.e. to have bacteria break down waste. > But, are products like SPC or others the answer? Does anyone have an > opinions here they could share? > Thanks in advance, > -Dave
Response:
You should pump your tank every 3 years. Eventually, it will fill up and send solids to leaching bed. You shouldn’t put any enzymes or yeast or anything else into system. A properly working system will not need them and you are just throwing your money away. Don’t run any water softener brine into the system. It effectively "pickles" the contents of tank and hinders breakdown. Don’t use too many harsh chemicals and cleaners – they will kill the bacteria. Don’t use liquid fabric softeners. They are made from the by products of rendering – ie animal fat. Septic systems are not that complicated. If you pump out the tank and limit the stresses that you put it under, you will be problem free for many years. Lori Denis MJ Denis Bros Construction – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Got an email about some enzyme type product called SPC to maintain > adequate levels of septic system bacteria. I’ve been concerned for > some time now about harsh detergents and fat, etc. breaking down > bacteria in my system. I keep reading conflicting information about > pumping out systems, whether it’s even necessary, etc. My gut feel is > that the "appropriate" way to address this is for the system to work as > it’s naturally supposed to – i.e. to have bacteria break down waste. > But, are products like SPC or others the answer? Does anyone have an > opinions here they could share? > Thanks in advance, > -Dave
Response:
> You should pump your tank every 3 years. Eventually, it will fill up and > send solids to leaching bed. You shouldn’t put any enzymes or yeast or > anything else into system. A properly working system will not need them > and you are just throwing your money away. > Don’t run any water softener brine into the system. It effectively > "pickles" the contents of tank and hinders breakdown.
IMO the part about the softener discharge simply isn’t true. I know that many years ago it was thought to cause problems but since actual studies were done bans against the connection to on site septic systems have been removed. Gary Quality Water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t use too many > harsh chemicals and cleaners – they will kill the bacteria. Don’t use > liquid fabric softeners. They are made from the by products of rendering – > ie animal fat. > Septic systems are not that complicated. If you pump out the tank and > limit the stresses that you put it under, you will be problem free for many > years. > Lori Denis > MJ Denis Bros Construction
Response:
We seem to have a difference of opinion on this topic. I gather by your signing each post "Quality Water" that you are a supplier of softener systems. I, on the other hand, am an installer of septic systems. We highly recommend to our customers that they do not run their softeners into the septic. This is based on our own experience and the advice of the regulating agency in our area. Have a look at the situation from my standpoint. I have heard alot reasons not to hook a softener to the septic and very few reasons to do so. I think that it would take a pretty substantial and detailed study from an unbiased party – ie not a water softener company – to convince me that brine is in any way good for a septic. In my opinion, aside from my reservations about putting brine into the tank, a softener puts an excess load on the leaching bed and tank. Its simply better not to do it. Lori Denis MJ Denis Bros Construction – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You should pump your tank every 3 years. Eventually, it will fill > up and > send solids to leaching bed. You shouldn’t put any enzymes or yeast > or > anything else into system. A properly working system will not need > them > and you are just throwing your money away. > Don’t run any water softener brine into the system. It effectively > "pickles" the contents of tank and hinders breakdown. > IMO the part about the softener discharge simply isn’t true. I know > that many years ago it was thought to cause problems but since actual > studies were done bans against the connection to on site septic > systems have been removed. > Gary > Quality Water > Don’t use too many > harsh chemicals and cleaners – they will kill the bacteria. Don’t > use > liquid fabric softeners. They are made from the by products of > rendering – > ie animal fat. > Septic systems are not that complicated. If you pump out the tank > and > limit the stresses that you put it under, you will be problem free > for many > years. > Lori Denis > MJ Denis Bros Construction
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Got an email about some enzyme type product called SPC to maintain >adequate levels of septic system bacteria. I’ve been concerned for >some time now about harsh detergents and fat, etc. breaking down >bacteria in my system. I keep reading conflicting information about >pumping out systems, whether it’s even necessary, etc. My gut feel is >that the "appropriate" way to address this is for the system to work as >it’s naturally supposed to – i.e. to have bacteria break down waste. >But, are products like SPC or others the answer? Does anyone have an >opinions here they could share? > All the independent research indicates that (a) pumping is > necessary (the debate rages on frequency of pump out..) and > (b) enzymes are generally a waste of cash.
Agreed. There are people who swear that they used the enzymes and have never had their septic pumped in 30 years, but generally if you examined such systems you’d find that they had failed but in a way that didn’t create obvious problems for the owner.
Response:
Got an email about some enzyme type product called SPC to maintain adequate levels of septic system bacteria. I’ve been concerned for some time now about harsh detergents and fat, etc. breaking down bacteria in my system. I keep reading conflicting information about pumping out systems, whether it’s even necessary, etc. My gut feel is that the "appropriate" way to address this is for the system to work as it’s naturally supposed to – i.e. to have bacteria break down waste. But, are products like SPC or others the answer? Does anyone have an opinions here they could share? Thanks in advance, -Dave
Response:
>Got an email about some enzyme type product called SPC to maintain >adequate levels of septic system bacteria. I’ve been concerned for >some time now about harsh detergents and fat, etc. breaking down >bacteria in my system. I keep reading conflicting information about >pumping out systems, whether it’s even necessary, etc. My gut feel is >that the "appropriate" way to address this is for the system to work as >it’s naturally supposed to – i.e. to have bacteria break down waste. >But, are products like SPC or others the answer? Does anyone have an >opinions here they could share?
All the independent research indicates that (a) pumping is necessary (the debate rages on frequency of pump out..) and (b) enzymes are generally a waste of cash. Tom Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS? http://www.cottageliving.com