The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. *Keep* questioning the painful truths I’ve laid out before you.
> The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting > ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. > *Keep* questioning the painful truths I’ve laid out before you.
You are so negative – can’t you see it’ll kick off a new Mowtown era that’ll be good for our jaded music scene? ("Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide…")
The Ruskies and more so the Chinese need the US trade $ more than they need a war right now. It is that USA that needs a new war to divert attentions. Watch for "The Attack on Iran", coming soon on CNN. >("Nowhere to run, nowhere
to hide…") JJ Cale, him never been to Deetroit. :-> Porky
>The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting >ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. >*Keep* questioning the painful truths I’ve laid out before you.
Question: how will this affect the supply of tubes for my amp?
lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: … > You are so negative – can’t you see it’ll kick off a new Mowtown era > that’ll be good for our jaded music scene? ("Nowhere to run, nowhere > to hide…")
Mowtown? Is that Lawn Mower Man’s new label?
Mike T., tied to the tracks, said: >The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting >ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. … > Question: how will this affect the supply of tubes for my amp?
It’s great for us. We can scavenge tubes from all the downed Sukhois, MiGs, and whatever the Chinese fly!
> lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: > … > You are so negative – can’t you see it’ll kick off a new Mowtown era > that’ll be good for our jaded music scene? ("Nowhere to run, nowhere > to hide…") > Mowtown? > Is that Lawn Mower Man’s new label?
Yep, our ass is grass. :-) (do I get a prize for trying to make a misspelling mean something?)
Martha & the Vandellas you silly. (‘64?)
> >The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting >ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. >*Keep* questioning the painful truths I’ve laid out before you. > Question: how will this affect the supply of tubes for my amp?
There should initially be a great increase in & immense price reduction of the finest ga-ga NOS, assuming they kill off all the guys who sit home unproductively in California playing their guitars & amps first, who piled these tubes up. Then, as they see it cuts into sales of new Chinese & Russian tubes, they’ll get confiscated or smashed, and the best you’ll be able to get will be boring Russian 5881’s for $200 an unmatched pair. The rest depends on whether they supply power to your compound…or whether the guards are guitar players who like amp techs…
lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: … > Mowtown? > Is that Lawn Mower Man’s new label? > Yep, our ass is grass. :-) (do I get a prize for trying to make a > misspelling mean something?)
Post of the Week!
lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: … > There should initially be a great increase in & immense price reduction > of the finest ga-ga NOS, assuming they kill off all the guys who sit > home unproductively in California playing their guitars & amps first, > who piled these tubes up. Then, as they see it cuts into sales of new > Chinese & Russian tubes, they’ll get confiscated or smashed, and the > best you’ll be able to get will be boring Russian 5881’s for $200 an > unmatched pair. The rest depends on whether they supply power to your > compound…or whether the guards are guitar players who like amp > techs…
Maybe in California. Texas doesn’t plan on losing. We have more guns per capita than anyone, and more guns, total, than California has, well, just about anything.
> Maybe in California. Texas doesn’t plan > on losing.
That’s nice. If you go back to lynching a judge now & then, you just may inspire enough morale to win. 
>The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting >ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. >*Keep* questioning the painful truths I’ve laid out before you. > Question: how will this affect the supply of tubes for my amp?
Damn, Mike. Now you have said something that I can relate to. <G> Ed Cregger
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: > … > There should initially be a great increase in & immense price reduction > of the finest ga-ga NOS, assuming they kill off all the guys who sit > home unproductively in California playing their guitars & amps first, > who piled these tubes up. Then, as they see it cuts into sales of new > Chinese & Russian tubes, they’ll get confiscated or smashed, and the > best you’ll be able to get will be boring Russian 5881’s for $200 an > unmatched pair. The rest depends on whether they supply power to your > compound…or whether the guards are guitar players who like amp > techs… > Maybe in California. Texas doesn’t plan > on losing. We have more guns per capita > than anyone, and more guns, total, than > California has, well, just about anything.
It’s gonna be really funny when you can’t buy ammo for those guns cause the Chinese bought all the ammo companies not to mention when they bought up all the gun companies and the machining companies and the steel companies. You think you gonna back talk when you’re working for them???? ha ha ha. You’re fired, man and don’t think bout gettin no union together neither. Just look at all the righties worshiping at the great WalMart of China. There ain’t no revolutionaries or minute men there at all. Just self centered gluttons. Consume consume consume. Long as there’s a paycheck and a double meat patty on the table, everything’s cool and you’re unamerican for suggesting otherwise. Guns, smuns. Guns don’t fight back. People do. do wah diddy.
> The Ruskies and more so the Chinese need the US trade $ more than they > need a war right now. It is that USA that needs a new war to divert > attentions. Watch for "The Attack on Iran", coming soon on CNN. >("Nowhere to run, nowhere > to hide…") > JJ Cale, him never been to Deetroit. > :-> > Porky
For *now*, that is true. But, as time goes by and the USA becomes more isolated, due to our unprovoked invasions of other countries, pretty soon….no one is going to want to do business with us. The *rest* of the world will do quite nicely….especially without *us* to make all the rules, eh? I’ve also heard the rumblings about a secret air war about to begin, in Iran. (a load of cruise missles, would be my guess) We’re about to become a whole lot *less* popular in the world….if that’s possible. Now then….does anyone remember my (and others) postings (from several months ago!) about a war with Iran, already scheduled to begin this summer??? This is a way scarier time than many of you realize. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
>It’s great for us. We can scavenge tubes >from all the downed Sukhois, MiGs, and >whatever the Chinese fly!
Inexact copies of said planes, mostly. (LED irony meter) —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-
> >The Russians & Chinese…just signed an anti-U.S. pact and are getting >ready to embark upon joint military maneuvers. > Why shouldn’t they? The US is obviously a threat to their national > interests and energy strategies? The US military budget is greater than > the all of the rest of the world’s countries COMBINED. And the two > countries are also neighbors. > your name here!
now is that logical, or is that logical?
John S. Shinal, tied to the tracks, said: >It’s great for us. We can scavenge tubes >from all the downed Sukhois, MiGs, and >whatever the Chinese fly! > Inexact copies of said planes, mostly.
I know. I just couldn’t think of the names. Shenyang, Chengdu. Nanchang… The planes themselves have names like "Peace Pearl", and the "East Wind" series (some of their early efforts). They’re allegedly working on their version of our F-22.
lbrty4us, tied to the tracks, said: > Maybe in California. Texas doesn’t plan > on losing. > That’s nice. If you go back to lynching a judge now & then, you just > may inspire enough morale to win.
The judges we need to lynch generally have enough sense to stay out of Texas and avoid the lynching. 8^/
> It’s gonna be really funny when you can’t buy ammo for those guns cause > the Chinese bought all the ammo companies
I see you have no shooting experience – we’ve been buying Chinese ammo for 20 years… > not to mention when they bought up all the gun companies and the > machining companies and the steel companies.
Such a deal I have for you: all my shares in China Steel (if you can still find it on the pink sheets…).
> > It’s gonna be really funny when you can’t buy ammo for those guns cause > the Chinese bought all the ammo companies > I see you have no shooting experience – we’ve been buying Chinese ammo > for 20 years…
not since I was a kid and shot with my dad at the National Guard range. He was captain of the state rifle team. That was at least 38 years ago. I could put one dead center but handling a gun has no appeal now – too many onery folks around I’d be tempted to use it on. He has tinnitus even though he wore ear protection. I, of course, rebelled. > not to mention when they bought up all the gun companies and the > machining companies and the steel companies. > Such a deal I have for you: all my shares in China Steel (if you can > still find it on the pink sheets…).
thanks, but no. At least as we head back to the bronze age, I remember how to build a foundry and cast, also once built a glass oven and lehr. I’m tellin ya, the things they used to teach in school before it became too dangerous in the land of lawyers. You know, I actually am a great admirer of Chinese work ethics and determination. Perhaps very jealous would be a better choice of words than great admirer. In university we just hated all the orientals because they worked so hard, studied day and night and wrecked the grading curve. We were just a little bit lazy – grasshoppers surrounded by ants. Well, they’re still studying day and night and they ARE gonna beat us at our own capitalistic game cause we are just more than a little bit lazy, grasshoppers fiddling away while they work. You laugh at the pink sheets but they’ll get it down. I laughed when I saw the equipment they brought to their first shoe equipment show in Germany 17 years ago. Well, Europe ain’t laughing now. China watched, they listened and learned, they tried harder and they are burying every shoe manufacturer and shoe equipment manufacturer world wide. I have no doubt they’ll be able to do it to every industry eventually.
> thanks, but no. At least as we head back to the bronze age, I remember > how to build a foundry and cast, also once built a glass oven and lehr. > I’m tellin ya, the things they used to teach in school before it became > too dangerous in the land of lawyers.
As late as the ’60’s some of us had to learn hands-on coal forging, sandcasting & machining to become engineers using the crude & traditional tools & ways so as to thoroughly understand them firsthand – and to keep making things until they couldn’t be dulled, broken or misfitted before being passed (or flunked). Having your first little cold chisel shattered to pieces by a merciless instructor swinging a 20 lb hammer to it on a carburized plate – then being forced to study all the pieces under a microscope, then start over from scratch – teaches one a great deal about metalurgy. > You laugh > at the pink sheets but they’ll get it down.
No, I rue speculating on a near-term bright-looking major Chinese steel venture that went down the toilet.
> No, I rue speculating on a near-term bright-looking major Chinese steel > venture that went down the toilet.
ouch…..it pays to speak the local language. You woulda known what they were saying behind your back . Beware of pink sheets and hot currency tip faxes. I hope you’re not buying iraqi dinar??? Well there’s worse things – death for example.
Hi Everyone, I received this press release from Alstom Marine and thought it would be of interest. In addition to this press release I received word this morning that the QM2 returned to Saint-Nazaire on Tuesday afternoon. I am told that there were thousands out to greet her. Trades are reporting that the sea trial was "Very positive" according to Alstom Marine of all the technical tests. If you have missed any of my news’ postings, they are available on my web site. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com Queen of the Seas nears completion November 13, 2003 Work is on target to prepare the Cunard cruise liner Queen Mary 2, the world
>The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire >being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are >that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, >and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it.
Don’t forget under powered. — lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance either. It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a 15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame. Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) Cheers, C
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
not many owners yet i would guess.the 2 we got were gone in a week times – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
the new dodge magnum looks very much like a pacifica but the rear hatch goes into the roof line oh about 2 feet and will have the hemi and awd as the option. seen one last week – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the Pacifica is one of the best looking of the crossover vehicles. > Not sure of the drive experience as it’s too far out of my reach $$$wise to > think about. same with the Crossfire. NOt great looking but not "ugly". > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Larry > Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the > next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. > > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > > drive one and try it out. > > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this > car? > > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to > me > > is a good sign!) > > -FPtM
I kept my first and never again VW product 3 months. Hope you have better luck. Mine was brand new and pure junk.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely > substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt > ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance > either. > It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I > finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to > replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and > seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect > there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a > 15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to > Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame. > Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) > Cheers, > C > > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people > here > > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a different sort.) DAS — — NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nah, it’s been dethroned by the Honda Elephant. > Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool > refrigerator. >>>The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to >>>drive one and try it out. >>>Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? >>Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a >>thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
>Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely >substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt >ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance >either. >It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I >finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to >replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and >seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect >there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a >15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to >Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame.
Mercedes (C240, C320, E320, E500, S430, S500), BMW (325xi, 330xi), Volvo (S60), Jaguar (X-Type), Infiniti (G35). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) >Cheers, >C > > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people >here > > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
> Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-)
I wouldn’t let go of it just yet… A co-worker bought a Quattro. He gets to drive it occasionally (when it escapes from the dealer service dept.) but usually not everything is working right.
> A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it > would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) > Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? > Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, > probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. > It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from > certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder > if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the > Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a > different sort.)
I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar, Mercedes, Lamborghini, or BMW. What I don’t like is the dilution of Chrysler engineering with Mercedes, especially when it is just re-skinning an old Benz platform and calling it a new Chrysler. This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that many of us long-time Chrysler aficianados expected of the "merger of equals" lie that was pushed on us.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it > would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) > Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? > Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, > probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. > It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from > certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder > if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the > Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a > different sort.) >I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar, >Mercedes, Lamborghini, or BMW. What I don’t like is the dilution of >Chrysler engineering with Mercedes, especially when it is just >re-skinning an old Benz platform and calling it a new Chrysler.
As opposed to the Chrysler management from 1971-1999, which re-skinned old Mitsubishi, Sunbeam, and Renault platforms and called them Chryslers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that many of us long-time Chrysler >aficianados expected of the "merger of equals" lie that was pushed on us.
Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… DAS — — NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" —
> I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar,
> As opposed to the Chrysler management from 1971-1999, which re-skinned old > Mitsubishi, Sunbeam, and Renault platforms and called them Chryslers?
And I never bought any of that crap either.
> Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect > doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until > Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… >
Yeah, Ford improved reliability. And killed the soul of Jaguar. I’d love to have an old V12 Jag. The Brits used to know how to build *engines* that were works of art even if they couldn’t make wiring that would reliably power a night-light. Engines from companies like Napier, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Bristol, and Bentley. And they weren’t just called by their displacements, they had names like "Merlin," "Lion," "Sabre," "Centaurus," and "Deltic.". I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently that the incredible Napier Deltic locomotives have been preserved and are in use at rail shows and on excursion runs. Maybe Britain hasn’t sold its entire soul to Ford, Toyota, and BMW.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect > doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until > Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… > >Yeah, Ford improved reliability. And killed the soul of Jaguar. I’d love >to have an old V12 Jag. The Brits used to know how to build *engines* >that were works of art even if they couldn’t make wiring that would >reliably power a night-light. Engines from companies like Napier, >Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Bristol, and Bentley. And they weren’t just called >by their displacements, they had names like "Merlin," "Lion," "Sabre," >"Centaurus," and "Deltic.". I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently >that the incredible Napier Deltic locomotives have been preserved and >are in use at rail shows and on excursion runs. Maybe Britain hasn’t >sold its entire soul to Ford, Toyota, and BMW.
What Toyota? Ford owns Jaguar, Aston-Martin, and Land Rover; BMW owns Rolls-Royce and Mini; VW owns Bentley. GM has always owned Vauxhall. What does that leave? Rover-MG? Lotus?
"Chris Mauritz" wrote > Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-)
No thanks. I have one, love it, and hope to drive it for years to come. I don’t think it can be matched at a reasonable price. 73,000 miles of smiles so far. Gramps
The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to drive one and try it out. Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me is a good sign!) -FPtM
Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
I think the Pacifica is one of the best looking of the crossover vehicles. Not sure of the drive experience as it’s too far out of my reach $$$wise to think about. same with the Crossfire. NOt great looking but not "ugly". Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here fall over themselves buying it and praising it. Larry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the > next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this > car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to > me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
Uncomfortable seating will kill the car but I don’t see much to the plastic issue. The 300M is described as having a cheap interior and my other car, an Avalon is supposed to have an almost Lexus quality interior according to reviews but I don’t see much difference except for the power window and door switches. The Avalon’s are much nicer and like the ones in the Pacifica though the door panel switches for the seat in the Pacifica I drove last were loose.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire > being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are > that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, > and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it. > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car?
Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
> Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it.
Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT and NeuBeetle.:-)
Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool refrigerator.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a > thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
Nah, it’s been dethroned by the Honda Elephant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool > refrigerator. >>The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to >>drive one and try it out. >>Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? >Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a >thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
I’m no car designer or art major but I can’t get too excited over the Crossfire styling. For the most part it works for me but the extra wide natural finished trim around the windshield and the shape of the back of the vehicle don’t look quite right somehow. A little less of the beachball look on the tail, maybe a bit broader and a hint of a ducktail spoiler like on the LH cars? Too much like that Audi thing. — "Opportunities are spawned from crisis"
Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to drive one and try it out. Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me is a good sign!) -FPtM
Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
I think the Pacifica is one of the best looking of the crossover vehicles. Not sure of the drive experience as it’s too far out of my reach $$$wise to think about. same with the Crossfire. NOt great looking but not "ugly". Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here fall over themselves buying it and praising it. Larry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the > next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this > car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to > me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
Uncomfortable seating will kill the car but I don’t see much to the plastic issue. The 300M is described as having a cheap interior and my other car, an Avalon is supposed to have an almost Lexus quality interior according to reviews but I don’t see much difference except for the power window and door switches. The Avalon’s are much nicer and like the ones in the Pacifica though the door panel switches for the seat in the Pacifica I drove last were loose.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire > being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are > that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, > and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it. > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car?
Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
> Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it.
Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT and NeuBeetle.:-)
Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool refrigerator.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a > thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
Nah, it’s been dethroned by the Honda Elephant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool > refrigerator. >>The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to >>drive one and try it out. >>Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? >Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a >thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
I’m no car designer or art major but I can’t get too excited over the Crossfire styling. For the most part it works for me but the extra wide natural finished trim around the windshield and the shape of the back of the vehicle don’t look quite right somehow. A little less of the beachball look on the tail, maybe a bit broader and a hint of a ducktail spoiler like on the LH cars? Too much like that Audi thing. — "Opportunities are spawned from crisis"
Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
>The auto magazines I have read hasn’t said anything about the Crossfire >being ugly. They like the styling. The negatives, according to them, are >that they used to much plastic in the interior, which makes it look cheap, >and seating is not comfortable. As far as driving experience, they liked it.
Don’t forget under powered. — lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance either. It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a 15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame. Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) Cheers, C
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
not many owners yet i would guess.the 2 we got were gone in a week times – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > drive one and try it out. > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to me > is a good sign!) > -FPtM
the new dodge magnum looks very much like a pacifica but the rear hatch goes into the roof line oh about 2 feet and will have the hemi and awd as the option. seen one last week – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think the Pacifica is one of the best looking of the crossover vehicles. > Not sure of the drive experience as it’s too far out of my reach $$$wise to > think about. same with the Crossfire. NOt great looking but not "ugly". > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people here > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Larry > Some people think it is ugly. It appears that the Pacifica may be the > next Edsel. Hopefully the Crossfire does better. > > The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to > > drive one and try it out. > > Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this > car? > > (The styling is going to be with us for a while, it seems, which to > me > > is a good sign!) > > -FPtM
I kept my first and never again VW product 3 months. Hope you have better luck. Mine was brand new and pure junk.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely > substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt > ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance > either. > It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I > finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to > replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and > seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect > there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a > 15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to > Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame. > Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) > Cheers, > C > > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people > here > > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a different sort.) DAS — — NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nah, it’s been dethroned by the Honda Elephant. > Nah, nah, fugly is the Pontiac Aztec..a thinly disguised whirlpool > refrigerator. >>>The Crossfire is just slightly out of my budget, but I would love to >>>drive one and try it out. >>>Just wondering why, on this group, there isn’t more traffic on this car? >>Because this is a CHRYSLER discussion group and the Crossdresser is a >>thinly disguised Mercedes? And fugly to boot?
>Personally, I think the Pacifica is OK looking, but it is absolutely >substandard when it comes to power vs weight. The crossfire is indeed butt >ugly and definitely nothing to write home about in terms of performance >either. >It’s too bad that Chrysler can’t come up with a decent sedan with AWD. I >finally got tired of waiting (speaking of Audi) and bought an A4 quattro to >replace my 300M. Much better driving car, AWD, better mileage, faster, and >seems more sturdily built. The downside is that it’s smaller. I suspect >there are a lot of folks out there who want an AWD vehicle without buying a >15mpg pig of an SUV. Those folks currently have nowhere to go, but to >Volkswagen/Audi/Subaru. A shame.
Mercedes (C240, C320, E320, E500, S430, S500), BMW (325xi, 330xi), Volvo (S60), Jaguar (X-Type), Infiniti (G35). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-) >Cheers, >C > > Funny when something foreign comes over that’s truly butt ugly people >here > > fall over themselves buying it and praising it. > Well, the crossdresser IS foriegn. You also just described the Audi TT > and NeuBeetle.:-)
> Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-)
I wouldn’t let go of it just yet… A co-worker bought a Quattro. He gets to drive it occasionally (when it escapes from the dealer service dept.) but usually not everything is working right.
> A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it > would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) > Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? > Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, > probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. > It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from > certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder > if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the > Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a > different sort.)
I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar, Mercedes, Lamborghini, or BMW. What I don’t like is the dilution of Chrysler engineering with Mercedes, especially when it is just re-skinning an old Benz platform and calling it a new Chrysler. This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that many of us long-time Chrysler aficianados expected of the "merger of equals" lie that was pushed on us.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A review in the UK liked the styling of the Crossfire but was unsure if it > would hack it against the Merc SLK here. (The badge, the badge.) > Maybe the Crossfire will get a retractable roof one day? > Haven’t seen one for real yet — they’ll stay a rarity in Europe, > probably — but in the picture it looked pretty good to me. > It is interesting that the Crossfire attracts a particular venom from > certain quarters in this ng (Crossdresser being a polite example). I wonder > if it’s because it was conceived by FOREIGNERS… (Same could apply to the > Pacifica, which has also attracted its share of criticism, thoughof a > different sort.) >I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar, >Mercedes, Lamborghini, or BMW. What I don’t like is the dilution of >Chrysler engineering with Mercedes, especially when it is just >re-skinning an old Benz platform and calling it a new Chrysler.
As opposed to the Chrysler management from 1971-1999, which re-skinned old Mitsubishi, Sunbeam, and Renault platforms and called them Chryslers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is EXACTLY the kind of crap that many of us long-time Chrysler >aficianados expected of the "merger of equals" lie that was pushed on us.
Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… DAS — — NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" —
> I’ve always respected European engineering, be it in the form of Jaguar,
> As opposed to the Chrysler management from 1971-1999, which re-skinned old > Mitsubishi, Sunbeam, and Renault platforms and called them Chryslers?
And I never bought any of that crap either.
> Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect > doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until > Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… >
Yeah, Ford improved reliability. And killed the soul of Jaguar. I’d love to have an old V12 Jag. The Brits used to know how to build *engines* that were works of art even if they couldn’t make wiring that would reliably power a night-light. Engines from companies like Napier, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Bristol, and Bentley. And they weren’t just called by their displacements, they had names like "Merlin," "Lion," "Sabre," "Centaurus," and "Deltic.". I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently that the incredible Napier Deltic locomotives have been preserved and are in use at rail shows and on excursion runs. Maybe Britain hasn’t sold its entire soul to Ford, Toyota, and BMW.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, I am glad you respected Jag engineering….but I hope your respect > doesn’t go back too far…a load of unreliable old-fashioned metal until > Ford pumped a bit of money (billions) in… > >Yeah, Ford improved reliability. And killed the soul of Jaguar. I’d love >to have an old V12 Jag. The Brits used to know how to build *engines* >that were works of art even if they couldn’t make wiring that would >reliably power a night-light. Engines from companies like Napier, >Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Bristol, and Bentley. And they weren’t just called >by their displacements, they had names like "Merlin," "Lion," "Sabre," >"Centaurus," and "Deltic.". I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently >that the incredible Napier Deltic locomotives have been preserved and >are in use at rail shows and on excursion runs. Maybe Britain hasn’t >sold its entire soul to Ford, Toyota, and BMW.
What Toyota? Ford owns Jaguar, Aston-Martin, and Land Rover; BMW owns Rolls-Royce and Mini; VW owns Bentley. GM has always owned Vauxhall. What does that leave? Rover-MG? Lotus?
"Chris Mauritz" wrote > Anyone want to buy a low mileage ‘99 300M? 8-)
No thanks. I have one, love it, and hope to drive it for years to come. I don’t think it can be matched at a reasonable price. 73,000 miles of smiles so far. Gramps
21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie Jackson
Is this supposed to be funny? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
Great stuff.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
That’s pretty good. Put them all together, and you’ll have a stack that’s as thick as one dime store novel. Pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda >20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno >19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver >18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino >17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON >16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden >15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates >14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman >13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore >12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC >11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS >10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide >9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian >8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN >7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN >6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes >5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE >4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA >3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY >2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson >And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … >1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie >Jackson
– Why don’t we look into the future? That’s always good for a laugh. –Grim
> Is this supposed to be funny?
No. But it is funny. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
Believe it or not but #3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY, I recently did a study and almost all Amish teens have cell phones!!! — G P THIBAULT www.mp3.com/littlebastard
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this supposed to be funny? > No. But it is funny. > > 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The > Rev.Jessie > > Jackson
A great list, but you forgot a few: German Love Poems "You too Can Retire Early" by Strom Thurmond The Big Book of French Hospitality "The Book of Virtues" by Bill Clinton "Investments Made Easy" by Hillary Rodman Clinton The Engineer’s Guide to Fashion "’Til Death Do Us Part" by Elizabeth Taylor America’s Most Popular Lawyers "The Secret of Keeping Chaste" by Madonna Career Opportunities for Liberal Arts Majors "The Complete Guide to Men’s Fashion" by J. Edgar Hoover "U.S Treaties Honored" by The American Indian League "Understanding Jewish Heritage" by Louis Farrakhan Catholic Birth Control Techniques "Enforcing the Campaign Finance Laws" by Janet Reno Unanimous Supreme Court Decisions Thru the Years "Operating On a Shoestring" by Bill Gates Steps Toward Korean Unification "The Diplomacy Handbook" by Saddam Hussein Native American Rights Handbook "Respecting Others" by Tonya Harding Failsafe Systems – The MIR Experience IRS Customer Success Stories Unix for Dummies
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
In fact, it’s fuckin’ HILARIOUS. ;-) LV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Is this supposed to be funny? > 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
>Is this supposed to be funny?
NOW *THAT’S* FUNNY. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda > 20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno > 19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver > 18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino > 17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON > 16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden > 15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates > 14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman > 13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore > 12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC > 11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS > 10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide > 9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian > 8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN > 7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN > 6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes > 5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE > 4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA > 3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY > 2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson > And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … > 1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie > Jackson
You forgot some….. French War Heros Original Russian Inventions Original Japanese Inventions Book of Knowledge – by the CIA All about Islam – by Bush Electronics – P. A. Etiquette – L.V. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >21. HOW I SERVED MY COUNTRY – by Jane Fonda >20. MY BEAUTY SECRETS – by Janet Reno >19. HOW TO BUILD YOUR OWN AIRPLANE – by John Denver >18. MY SUPER BOWL HIGHLIGHTS – by Dan Marino >17. THINGS I LOVE ABOUT BILL – by HILLARY CLINTON >16. MY LITTLE BOOK OF PERSONAL HYGIENE – by Osama Bin Laden >15. THINGS I CANNOT AFFORD – by Bill Gates >14. THINGS I WOULD NOT DO FOR MONEY – by Dennis Rodman >13. MY WILD YEARS – by Al Gore >12. AMELIA EARHART’S GUIDE TO THE PACIFIC >11. AMERICA’S MOST POPULAR LAWYERS >10. DETROIT: a Travel Guide >9. A COLLECTION of MOTIVATIONAL SPEECHES -by Dr. J. Kevorkian >8. EVERYTHING MEN KNOW ABOUT WOMEN >7. EVERYTHING WOMEN KNOW ABOUT MEN >6. ALL THE MEN I HAVE LOVED BEFORE – by Ellen De Generes >5. MIKE TYSON’S GUIDE TO DATING ETIQUETTE >4. SPOTTED OWL RECIPES – by the EPA >3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY >2. MY PLAN TO FIND THE REAL KILLERS – by O. J. Simpson >And the world’s Number One Thinnest Book … >1. MY BOOK OF MORALS – by Bill Clinton/with introduction by The Rev.Jessie >Jackson
>Unix for Dummies
Sorry – you blew it! I HAVE that book… 400 pages!! by Levine & Young. How about… Acurate Accounting – Martha Stewart Coping with Teenage Unpopularity – Olsen & Olsen
> In fact, it’s fuckin’ HILARIOUS. ;-) > LV
Yes.. Yes.. Thanks for sharing the totally OT jokes 
Here’s a link to something more interesting: http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/
> Here’s a link to something more interesting: > http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/
Obsession is a sad thing.
> > In fact, it’s fuckin’ HILARIOUS. ;-) > LV > Yes.. Yes.. Thanks for sharing the totally OT jokes
Nobody *made* you read ‘em, son. Twitchy mouse finger, perhaps? LV
> x-no-archive: yes >Here’s a link to something more interesting: >http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/ > Hey, thanks for that link. Here’s one, that I think you’ll > like. > http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/ > Let me know what you think. It looked right up your alley.
Fucking *excellent* link, thanks. ;-) LV
>Here’s a link to something more interesting: >http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/
Thanks for the link. Hilarious!!!! Just not the way you thought.
> Believe it or not but #3. THE AMISH PHONE DIRECTORY, I recently did a >study and almost all Amish teens have cell phones!!!
Here in Florida is a sort of enclave of runaway / reformed Amish. They aren’t exactly MTV characters, but drive and use phones. Ron
1. THE LOGIC BEHIND MY POLITCAL THINKING – by LV (with a forward by "Odin"
INTEGRITY IN JOURNALISM – by Time Warner
> INTEGRITY IN JOURNALISM – by Time Warner
WHAT I KNOW ABOUT WD-40 by Phil Allison
> Is this supposed to be funny?
Let ‘em laugh at this: http://slate.msn.com/id/2085481/ — For email, put NOT SPAM in Subject or I’ll probably miss it. <><
> A great list, but you forgot a few: > German Love Poems
Aw, c’mon, now you’re being unfair. Heinrich Heine, Joachim Ringelnatz and Ernst Jandl have all published great German love poems. For example (by Heine): Das Fr
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Your husband and mine might be related so watch what you wish for. I don’t let my husband anywhere near my tools! He’s a great dad, though so I let him stay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Tablesaws are an excellent tool to practice with. http://www.thisoldworkshop.com/whatif.htm Most any thing with a spinning blade will account for plenty of injury potential. Maybe it’s better that he only gets the tools, rather than using them.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Want to get a doorbell? Go to Home Depot, to the doorbell > section. The wireless bells cost about 11 dollars, and work like a > garage door opener. You just secure the button most anywhere, > mount the receiver unit anywhere. > Those buttons don’t do well if they get very wet, so mount it in a > spot fairly well protected from the rain > I made a rain-blocker for ours ( can’t drill holes in the apartments vinyl > siding <sigh> ) by cutting a strip from a milk jug with a tab and slot, > then put it under the siding edge next to the wood # sign for additional > wind/rain protection. No longer gets wet or blows off onto to ground. The > rubber cement didn’t hold ,so it’s jammed partly under the # now. > Hard to describe… a long narrow strip with a tab on one side. the tab has > a cut alongside the strip so it can fold over and make a roof and I cut a > slot in that fold over part to run the narrow part through. attached the > bell-button to the strip with the screws and poked the top and bottom edges > under the siding. good luck with that! <g> > [OP] >> house. He buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. > Dry, no fingerprints, sounds like that will increase the trade-in value > considerably! (In about 30 years, say?). >> Now, all my kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are >> hanging by a thread. He does not really know how to do these things, > Is this kitchen very well vented? All these problems sound like moisture > and unfinished wood? Especially if the wood hasn’t had a sealent applied. > …paint seals… >> guess I expect my husband to just "know" how to do these repairs. >> I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to > Ah, good ! You’ll understand this one then. Get a big ‘ol box of bandaids > and put them within reach, on the bench. Now tell him that all the books > agree that you learn by doing and until you’ve lost a pint of blood in the > garage… Oh, and that saw blades have REAL TEETH. Take a bite of > procastination today! (An old saw). :) >> do these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > Pshaw. That’s what the bandaids are for! Freedom to whelm! >> It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going >> to come crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call > Use Lincoln Logs to build temporary columns. I’m not confident with Legos. >> need to be done. Thanks for letting me vent > Yes that’s right ! Bandaids and Vents! You’ve got it ! > — > — > I could go both ways on this. – Shuttlecock
> Want to get a doorbell? Go to Home Depot, to the doorbell > section. The wireless bells cost about 11 dollars, and work like a > garage door opener. You just secure the button most anywhere, > mount the receiver unit anywhere. > Those buttons don’t do well if they get very wet, so mount it in a > spot fairly well protected from the rain
I made a rain-blocker for ours ( can’t drill holes in the apartments vinyl siding <sigh> ) by cutting a strip from a milk jug with a tab and slot, then put it under the siding edge next to the wood # sign for additional wind/rain protection. No longer gets wet or blows off onto to ground. The rubber cement didn’t hold ,so it’s jammed partly under the # now. Hard to describe… a long narrow strip with a tab on one side. the tab has a cut alongside the strip so it can fold over and make a roof and I cut a slot in that fold over part to run the narrow part through. attached the bell-button to the strip with the screws and poked the top and bottom edges under the siding. good luck with that! <g> [OP] > house. He buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage.
Dry, no fingerprints, sounds like that will increase the trade-in value considerably! (In about 30 years, say?). > Now, all my kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are > hanging by a thread. He does not really know how to do these things,
Is this kitchen very well vented? All these problems sound like moisture and unfinished wood? Especially if the wood hasn’t had a sealent applied. …paint seals… > guess I expect my husband to just "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to
Ah, good ! You’ll understand this one then. Get a big ‘ol box of bandaids and put them within reach, on the bench. Now tell him that all the books agree that you learn by doing and until you’ve lost a pint of blood in the garage… Oh, and that saw blades have REAL TEETH. Take a bite of procastination today! (An old saw). :) > do these home repairs, but they overwhelm me.
Pshaw. That’s what the bandaids are for! Freedom to whelm! > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going > to come crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call
Use Lincoln Logs to build temporary columns. I’m not confident with Legos. > need to be done. Thanks for letting me vent
Yes that’s right ! Bandaids and Vents! You’ve got it ! — — I could go both ways on this. – Shuttlecock
Hi, I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just "know" how to do these repairs. I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. Thanks for letting me vent btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Tell us about those cabinets. Maybe a little advice and some of those tools will not only get your cabinets fixed, but encourage your husband as well. Home maintenance is not rocket science (most of it anyway), but we all need a little hint now and then. — Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It’s Irish Math
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
> I need to vent… > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done.
Can you make a deal – a specific project will be done ("done" being well defined and verbally agreed) by X date or you hire someone to do it? One project at a time this way. Over a few years stuff would get done one way or the other, but one job at a time getting a generous deadline, with some rest/play space after a deadline is met, is less off-putting than facing a long list to be done "now." As to men buying tools and not using them, I see it so much I suspect it’s genetic. Live with it; you can’t change the biological definition of "male." Quasi
>I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He >buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my >kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He >does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is >embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans >for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just >"know" how to do these repairs. >I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do >these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. >It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come >crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he >gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. >Thanks for letting me vent >btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
How about having your father over for dinner, and to help your husband fix the cabinets? Not all men are born handy. And plenty of us buy tools that we don’t actually have time or the skill to use. But most of us don’t *really* mind a woman who stands her ground and either makes us fix something or calls the pros. Especially if it comes to us like: "Honey, I’m going to have a carpenter replace the kitchen cabinets, but I’ll need your help to put up the new undercabinet lights and hang the new under cabinet appliances…" Jeff
Thank you all. I am printing all this out to try to remedy the problem. Yes, the wood is particle board. And dad is gone for several years.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He >buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my >kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He >does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is >embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans >for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just >"know" how to do these repairs. >I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do >these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. >It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come >crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he >gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. >Thanks for letting me vent >btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad > How about having your father over for dinner, and to help your husband > fix the cabinets? > Not all men are born handy. And plenty of us buy tools that we don’t > actually have time or the skill to use. But most of us don’t *really* > mind a woman who stands her ground and either makes us fix something > or calls the pros. Especially if it comes to us like: "Honey, I’m > going to have a carpenter replace the kitchen cabinets, but I’ll need > your help to put up the new undercabinet lights and hang the new under > cabinet appliances…" > Jeff
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Go to HomeDepot together and agree to buy a tool he’s wanted IF he finishes a project on your list: * Air compressor for the cabinets * Laser level for the doorbell Yes, it’s bribery, but it works and is legal in 38 states. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
If that doesn’t work, go the other way. Demand so much sex that he will want to get out of the bedroom, hallway, kitchen or wherever and get to work on some of the projects. Frank
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Start witholding sex. He’ll be begging like a puppy in no time. > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > .
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the > house. He buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. > Now, all my kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are > hanging by a thread. He does not really know how to do these things, > and I think that he is embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical > engineer and drew up the plans for my childhood home and built it. I > guess I expect my husband to just "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to > do these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to > come crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call > someone, he gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t > need to be done. Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Your local library ought have books on home repairs,then you don’t have to buy them. If the cabinets were not screwed into the studs behind the plasterboard,then that could explain why they bow -out-,instead of down. And todays cabinetry is usually made from particleboard,which tends to sag easier,and is more affected by moisture.If hubby has a stud finder,locate the studs behind the cabinets,and see if the screws go into them.If not,put new ones in where the studs are.They may pull the cabinets (and bowed drywall)back into place.Then you might want to get replacement shelves cut to fit. — Jim Yanik,NRA member remove X to contact me
> I need bent over the kitchen counter asap!
Not bad enough that my old lady sends me this stuff in my email, now she’s hitting the newsgroups??
> Well considering you did not marry your father..
Says who? Look, she’s my wife and she can marry who she wants!! Get it?! Roger
> pps. Withhold sex, nahhhhh
Good girl hon. I’ll be sending the framing crew over for their new years ‘bonus’ after work, so get them panties off and be ready. Wooodworker says he’s got plenty of ‘wood’ for you. That should take care of your frustraion.. Luv, — Roger B. aka 3rd Generation, aka Wooodworker, aka a whole buncha stupid handles..
very funny even I had to laugh at that one LOL at least you haven’t lost your sense of humor yet Artie Boy posts about Roger B = 18 and climbing fast. Thanx
Sorry to hear about your dilemma. Securing the hardware should not be such a difficult deal, but eliminating the bow might be tricky. I’d find out why they bowed in the first place–is there a coffee maker or other heating appliance under the cabinets? Do you have fluctuations in humidity? Are the cabinets doors finished on BOTH sides? I have flattened wooden doors by placing them on the grass in the sun on a warm day. The heat/moisture on the bottom causes the wood to expand. The door is placed on the grass such that the hump is up in the middle (rather than like a dish). Timing varies–check every half hour using a straight edge. Tighten hinge screws by inserting a toothpick with a dab of woodworkers glue on the tip into the screw hole. I prefer to tightened by hand, rather than using a cordless drill because it gives more precise control. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi, >I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He >buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my >kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He >does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is >embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans >for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just >"know" how to do these repairs. >I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do >these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. >It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come >crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he >gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. >Thanks for letting me vent >btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi, >I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He >buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my >kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He >does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is >embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans >for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just >"know" how to do these repairs. >I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do >these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. >It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come >crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he >gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. >Thanks for letting me vent >btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Where to start 
) First, forget hubby fixing stuff. He is no more inclined, likely or willing to do fix-it stuff than you are to tear down the engine of the car. More important, probably, is not to compare him to your father! Yike! Has he ever berated your cooking in comparison to his mother’s? Grounds for homocide ) My mom – just a plain little white-gloves lady, was the fix it, build it, make it person. My dad had no interest or patience for such things and made it very plain. My mom’s favorite TV show when I was a kid was "Walt’s Workshop", along with Ozzie/Harriet and L. Welk. How borrrrrrrrrring. At the time. Somewhere along the way, my mother’s genes kicked in. It might have begun with watching the window washers in grammar school, which absolutely fascinated me. Then painters. Carpenters. How do they do that? Why do they do it that way? Well, I love building and painting and fixing. Making things on a small scale. My mom built her own kitchen cabinets, at first from necessity. Then, it was power tools for Christmas. Then she became interested in building miniature rooms, so there was a "parallel universe" of miniature tools of all kinds in HER workshop. Only 82 year old lady I knew with her own workshop ) I would highly recommend a "how to" book such as Reader’s Digest or such. They have many, many repairs with clear instructions. Try the next time something goes out. If the book doesn’t cover it, call a repair pro. Don’t bug the hubby and you don’t need his permission. If it costs too much, let him fix it. Now, for the kitchen cabinets: I truly cannot imagine kitchen cabinets "bowing" out. But, if they truly appear to be coming loose, you don’t want them to fall on you. Call the installer and have them come and take a look. Should be anchored to the studs, and if they aren’t they should have fallen long ago. As for the shelves, the plastic thingies aren’t the problem. Empty the cupboard, take shelves out and flip them over, then put stuff back in with the heavier stuff at the ends of the shelves so they don’t make them sag again. Now you’ll have a rise in the middle ) This morning I was on the Internet, looking for articles and instructions about book binding. Got into geneology recently and decided I wanted to make miniature versions of the old family photo albums to be Christmas tree ornaments to give to family members. Just about got it worked out. One article talked about parchment and the process for making it. You take a goat skin and soak it in slaked lime for about a week, change solution once or twice, haul it out and scrape the skin and hair off. Throw it in the creek, if you have one, overnight. Then put on a stretcher to dry it. Neighbor’s might complain, which would be right up my alley ) I want to give my great-grandmother’s spinning wheel a try, but I’ll probably save that for when I’m old. In my mother’s old things I recently found a little bundle of dark, yellowed newspaper clippings. Folded neatly and tied with a string. How to build a bird house, how to make an apron. Early twenties. She was a young teenager then. She could have built the Panama Canal, on time and under budget. Would have taken care of all the sick guys with yellow fever and made sure they took their cod liver oil. Probably would have helped their kids with their math homework in her spare time ) I let my nurse’s license lapse. Just couldn’t stand the paperwork any more.
> Thanks for replying to my post,guys. > Here is the problem. Our cabinets are 9 yrs. old. (not old, I think). The > weight on all of the shelves (which is not excessive), is causing the > cabinets to bow out , it seems at least, and the shelves are slighltly > warped downward. The shelf "hangers" are these cheepo plastic things and > seem to be part of the problem. > Thanks for any advise
Just a protocol point; If you coerce, bribe, or otherwise convince him to try to fix the cupboards, be prepared to accept any result that is not manifestly unsafe, or he’ll likely never fix anything again. Like any art, craft, or science, you get better at these things by doing them. The corollary is that the first few projects are going to take longer, cost more, and be uglier, than is reasonable. Not only do you have to be supportive and non-judgmental during the learning curve, he has to BELIEVE that you’ll be non-judgmental during the learning curve. –Goedjn`
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Well considering you did not marry your father you cannot expect the husband to do things the way your father did.. just like some men cannot expect their wife to be like their mother… buying tools and using them someday is being like a woman in a discount store…. they buy stuff and bring it home and put it in the closets….. my father did not know which way to hold a screw driver.. i can fix just about anything and have the tools and knowhow to use them…. i used to work on things around the house all the time…. if nothing needed fixing then i would mess with it until it would break and then be able to fix it( well kinda of).. it felt good to be able to do these things….. maybe he is stressed out.. i know when i was stressed out at work i quit doing alot the only thing i felt like doing was laying on the sofa and sleeping or watching tv…. and i always figured that i can do it later… whats the hurry… we bought this house 30 yrs. ago(we had it built)… i still refer to it as our new house…… well i got about 20-25 yrs. of work left to do in it and probably will not finish it…… but considering that i grew up in a dumpy neighborhood in a house that was falling apart when a kid, i think that this house in its worst shape is so i dont see any need to hurry to fix stuff as there will always be stuff to do….
-snip re: knackered cabinets- > Thanks for replying to my post,guys. > Here is the problem. Our cabinets are 9 yrs. old. (not old, I > think).
I’m guessing, but depending on the original quality, nine years could be reaching the projected design life. (I can imagine cabinets put in which are expected to be replaced after 8-10 years.) > The weight on all of the shelves (which is not excessive), is > causing the cabinets to bow out,
I’m not clear why on this: downwards weight on shelves shouldn’t cause an outward bowing. Must be a different problem.. > and the shelves are slightly warped downward. The shelf "hangers" > are these cheepo plastic things and seem to be part of the > problem.
That makes sense: a lot of shelf fixings — combined with particleboard shelves — aren’t designed for lot of weight to be carried over a lot of time.. I can think of a number of approaches to it: 1. Put some sort of strut/leg under the shelf. (Downside: an ugly solution that creates an obstacle for the lower shelf.) 2. Replace the shelf with thicker sheet material. (Downside: reduces the available space, and probably doesn’t match the other shelf materials/colours.) 3. Turn the old shelf upside down — bow up — and put less weight on it. (Downside: you lose some dishes.) 4. Glue a wooden batten along the edge of a new shelf — the old shelf’s bent, so throw it away. A length of wood doesn’t bend as easily as a sheet of particleboard. (Downside: needs glue and clamps: it’s a project…..) — Cheers, Harvey For e-mail, harvey becomes whhvs.
Hire the job out sell some of the tools to pay fpr the repair
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Want to get a doorbell? Go to Home Depot, to the doorbell section. The wireless bells cost about 11 dollars, and work like a garage door opener. You just secure the button most anywhere, mount the receiver unit anywhere. Those buttons don’t do well if they get very wet, so mount it in a spot fairly well protected from the rain. I suggest scheduling Saturday outings to Home Depot to watch the demonstations on how to install tile, hardwood flooring, drywall repair, toilet repair, etc. Or browse around and ask questions without him. Or forward some of the responses to this thread to his e-mail. Especially ones in which his fix-it skills are seen as his only fault. Don’t go making him perfect, just better.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Thanks for replying to my post,guys. Here is the problem. Our cabinets are 9 yrs. old. (not old, I think). The weight on all of the shelves (which is not excessive), is causing the cabinets to bow out , it seems at least, and the shelves are slighltly warped downward. The shelf "hangers" are these cheepo plastic things and seem to be part of the problem. Thanks for any advise ps. I think a man is still wrong even if a woman doesn’t hear him pps. Withhold sex, nahhhhh
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Start witholding sex. He’ll be begging like a puppy in no time. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
We all need a wife like this, only found one fault with her husband. Are you sure you are female?? Someone asked the question– if a man went into the woods and made a statement, and there was not a woman to hear him, would he still be wrong??
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > I need to vent. My husband does not repair/maintain things in the house. He > buys cool tools at Home Depot and they sit in the garage. Now, all my > kitchen cabinets are bowing and the attachments are hanging by a thread. He > does not really know how to do these things, and I think that he is > embarassed by it. My father was a mechanical engineer and drew up the plans > for my childhood home and built it. I guess I expect my husband to just > "know" how to do these repairs. > I am a nurse. I fix people. I’ve tried to buy books and learn how to do > these home repairs, but they overwhelm me. > It’s one thing to have no doorbell. But, now, my cabinets are going to come > crashing down on me or my kids. If I say that I need to call someone, he > gets mad, and says that he’ll do it or it really doesn’t need to be done. > Thanks for letting me vent > btw, this is his only fault, so I’m not doing so bad
Thanks Dave. Hopefully that will help Bill out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Re: NEC On-line, breaker loading/wiring questions… >NEC On-line, breaker loading/wiring questions… >< I am in electrical engineeer and have been doing wiring of all kinds >for 30+ years. I know circuits very well.> >
> >> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones >> come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
HAHA… You are right. They ARE babysitting our lazy and stupid workers. Thank you for proving my point. haha
>> > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again. > Funny how you always jump to the defence of US suppliers, and > denigrate Asian suppliers….
That is a factual correction not a defense. > US suppliers had to increase their pitiful quality standards, no doubt > from years of loose tolerance requirements and lax IQC standards of > Big 3 automakers, in order to supply to Japanese automakers.
I think everyone is well aware that GM gets the crap, and the better parts off the line go to the toyota,honda,Mazda, Ford, etc. It’s all about what the customer is willing to pay for. > Want an actual real-life reference of Japanese babysitting "Western > quality"? > Miracle from the East > – The Boxster lives thanks largely to some bossy guys from Japan > Autoweek December 2, 1996 > Excerpts:
So what? thanks for proving that Japan and Germany are more comparible than china is to either.
> >> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones >> come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
Funny how you always jump to the defence of US suppliers, and denigrate Asian suppliers…. US suppliers had to increase their pitiful quality standards, no doubt from years of loose tolerance requirements and lax IQC standards of Big 3 automakers, in order to supply to Japanese automakers. Want an actual real-life reference of Japanese babysitting "Western quality"? Miracle from the East – The Boxster lives thanks largely to some bossy guys from Japan Autoweek December 2, 1996 Excerpts: "You’d never guess that the first new Porsche in 20 years – a pearl of everything good about German engineering and automotive design – is so blatantly, shamelessly Japanese." "Imagine this scene on Porsche’s assembly line: Workers wearing bushy mustaches and the traditional leather aprons of German tradesmen, being scolded by finger-pointing Japanese men with white shirts and blue ties." "Wiedeking [Porsche CEO] credits almost unbelievable improvements in efficiency at Porsche to the Shin-Gijutsu consultants from Japan. For months the sensei raised hell on the factory floor in a relentless quest to purge muda [waste]." "Wiedeking was aware of Shin-Gijutsu – a cadre of retired Toyota executives that was taking Japan’s lean production message to the world. Apparently Toyota doesn’t consider small sports car builders a competitive threat, because when it created a list of companies that Shin-Gijutsu could not assist, Porsche was the only automaker that was not on the list. After several trips to Japan, Wiedeking finally persuaded Shin-Gijutsu chiefs Yoshiki Iwata and Chihiro Nakao to go to Zuffenhausen." "After dozens of confrontations and several skips and starts, Chihiro Nakao gradually saw his way of thinking take hold in Zuffenhausen. He and his associates became less strident with the Germans, but Nakao never was comfortable with Porsche’s claim that it made the best sports cars in the world. "How can you say this?" he would ask Wiedeking. "It’s not true." Perhaps it was a semantic disagreement over the precise meaning of "best."" "…since 1992, the number of man-hours required to build a 911 has fallen from 120 to 72, and it’s expected to fall 10 more hours by the time the new one is launched. On July 27, 1994, the first defect-free 911 rolled off the line…" "The simplest measure is Porsche’s bottom line. In 1995, after four years of losses totalling more than $300 million, the company earned a small profit – on roughly the same production volume that left a huge loss in 1992." "The Shin-Gijutsu now visit Porsche four times a year "for a little scolding," according to Wiedeking. But before they went home to Japan, Porsche prepared a festive send-off at the test track at Weissach. The company brought out Porsches spanning five decades, along with its best drivers, starting with Hans Stuck." "Some of the Japanese had more than enough after their first hot lap; others gleefully lined up for more. But when they got back to Japan, Nakao, Iwata and several associates went out and bought new Porsches." Chip …whose Lexus is "Western Quality" Bwhahaaahha!
> Very nicely said. D. Stern lost all his credibility… It’s sad that > too many of those racists and snobs are in the newsgroup. But I like > to say that I did appreciate some of his auto advices he had offer for > sometime.
How is one racist against something (a company, a corporation) that has no race, only a location(s)? The answer is one cannot. Companies employ people of all races, nationalities, what-have-you and the companies have cultures of their own. Often companies that are located in the same area(s) of the world have similiar cultures. It’s quite obvious once one works in world wide product development. People who work for these companies, regardless of their background, where their ancestors came from, where they live, will generally follow the culture of the company they work for. This is what one sees working in product development in gobal sense. Race is simply irrelvant. A redharing, a diverision from the real interest of the differences in *company* cultures and how that shows up in the end result. (the product). Basically if you were to take people from say new york and ship them over to work in a factory in an industrial city in mainland china working for a hong kong HQ’d company making widgets there shouldn’t be any difference in the quality of the widgets produced provided both the new and old set of workers were treated in the same manner.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > The question concerned *CHINESE* components. See the subject line? > > And all the comments concerned Western surveillance. See the > thread? > > Do you think that Japanese surveillance would not do as well? > You’re splitting hairs. Japanese surveillance, despite Japan’s location in > the East, *is* Western surveillance. Don’t believe me? Who do you think > built Japan’s economy (after, of course, flattening it)? > –DS > The *HORSESHIT ALARM* just went off. > The US, inspite of all the historical revisionists, did NOT rebuild Japans > economy after the second world war. The Japanese people did. Japans economy > pre-WWII was superior to the US, their manufacturing sectors and engineering > were equal and superior to the US. Remember the *GREAT DEPRESSION*? Besides, > today Japans economy is enormously stronger than the US’s, again because of > the Japanese people, not because *BENEVOLENT WHITES FELT PITY* after WWII. > Give your head a shake and stop trying to preach social economics. > You lose ground when your arguments turn into racially based "we’re smarter > because we’re white" exchanges of historically revised bullshit. You should > try to stick more to the topic of this NG; Chrysler automobiles. Some > Chinese parts are cheap crap. Some are excellent. Some American parts are > cheap crap. Some are excellent. It has nothing to do with *western > (read:WHITE OVERSEER) babysitting. It has nothing to do with culture or > racial background. It has everything to do with who is calling the shots at > the top. > Your racist and Americentric views of the world reflect poorly on you. You > stated your opinion and now it’s time to stop trying to prove evryone else > wrong and move on. > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Very nicely said. D. Stern lost all his credibility… It’s sad that too many of those racists and snobs are in the newsgroup. But I like to say that I did appreciate some of his auto advices he had offer for sometime.
>> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones > come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers?
A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
> > I also entrust my life to the parts used in the manufacture of the > vehicle. In the case on my Pontiac GTP, GM seems to be using steering > racks that abruptly fail. (www.nhtsa.com) I wonder if these > defective steering racks come from China. Bad quality can come from > anywhere on the planet. > Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones > come from China, and good ones come from North America.
We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers?
> > The legal liability alone will prevent any reputable company from > taking this risk. Think about it. > I agree that "false" quality labelling occurs, but these products > rarely make it to N.A., and never on reputable brand products. > I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > and assembled in china.
I work with 100s of these products every day. Some suppliers are strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, then source from somewhere else! Even if the big US comany does care the amount > of vigilance required is enormous.
The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be enormous. If the product is ODM’d and a name > just put on it, the process is even more difficult.
Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. Chip
> When I lived in HK, I went to a factory where they made knock offs > of expensive Italian shoes. When I asked about the "made in Italy" > labels being glued into the inner sole I was told (in Chinese) "The > labels were imported from Italy so it’s OK."
The way you wrote that I can just hear it. Sounds so much like the excuses I heard for other things. Like the company in china that wanted to violate the patents on torx plus. The engineer in charge of the screws on that project refused to put the paperwork through on this vendor. They eventually made it into the product (without any in the US ever signing off on it) as regular torx (at least that made them legal) and with various other problems. > It’s a systemic problem.
It certainly is..
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > The Chinese are great. In Singapore, they make the best routers in >> > the world (Cisco). WorldCom (RIP) and others also have manufacturing >> > facilities employing a vast majority of Chinese workers who turn out >> > fine products. >> To anyone who has delt with such things singapore is superior to >> mainland china. >> Often tooling is done in taiwan and singapore than moved to mainland >> china for production. > And vice-versa, what’s your point? > There are many decent tooling vendors in China. > Not vice-versa. Tooling generally occurs in Taiwan, Singapore, and maybe > Hong-Kong. (in rare cases the USA) The tools are then moved to mainland > china. For real crap everything is done in mainland china. > And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall > plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on > mainland china.
Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site should be up by the end of next week. Chip
>> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > and assembled in china. > I work with 100s of these products every day.
But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc etc. > Some suppliers are > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > then source from somewhere else!
Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates, the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later. > Even if the big US comany does care the amount > of vigilance required is enormous. > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > enormous.
Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never in the trenches. > If the product is ODM’d and a name > just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere.
*laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china or better yet trust the ODM to sign off on it. And once it’s all tooled up there is too much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The ODMs know that.
> That’s just what they tell the gweilos. Hehe. Don’t kid yourself, > the labels are made in China too. In China, the same factory will > make various grades of knock-offs of the same product. The best > knock-offs will be called "A-quality," and will display a label of a > notable Western country.
Seems you know about that. Do you know about the home production where factory workers get the materials and assemble/sew the products together at home and then sell them for extra personal cash? > I heard a story about a Western buyer visiting a factory in China > making cutlery which was being stamped "Made in Germany." He > immediately confronts the factory manager and asks him, "How come it > says Made in Germany?" > Without hesitation, the factory manager answers, "Don’t worry. Can > say, made anywhere!" Hahahahahahahhah!
And knowing this, you try to convince us that there aren’t problems that it’s all our imagination and our own failures. You believe that the orgin labels can be falsified but don’t believe that simple test reports can’t be? Come now. We’ll you just slipped into that rank of people who know what really happens, who know better, but cover it up.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > What assurance do I have that the name brand rotors at 2.5-5X the >> > price wouldn’t have come from the same damn plant in China or wherever >> > they’re made? >> Have you got at least one functional eye? How ’bout fingers, have you got >> some of them? Can you read English words? Dandy! Open up the box and read >> what is cast into the rotor. > You claim they fake certification, what makes you think they wouldn’t > fake country of origin? (I know that this does happen.) > When I lived in HK, I went to a factory where they made knock offs > of expensive Italian shoes. When I asked about the "made in Italy" > labels being glued into the inner sole I was told (in Chinese) "The > labels were imported from Italy so it’s OK."
That’s just what they tell the gweilos. Hehe. Don’t kid yourself, the labels are made in China too. In China, the same factory will make various grades of knock-offs of the same product. The best knock-offs will be called "A-quality," and will display a label of a notable Western country. I heard a story about a Western buyer visiting a factory in China making cutlery which was being stamped "Made in Germany." He immediately confronts the factory manager and asks him, "How come it says Made in Germany?" Without hesitation, the factory manager answers, "Don’t worry. Can say, made anywhere!" Hahahahahahahhah! This was a HUGE factory > that did business with some of the larger American and European shoe > companies. I had similar experiences with exporters of raw materials > such as wood and plastics in China. > It’s a systemic problem.
…you gotta admire that kind of flexibility. Chip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cheers, > C
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> And my point (which it appears you agree with, I’m only restating for >> others) is that the complaints against manufacturing have nothing to >> do with the ethnicity of the people making the product. For the >> people complaining about your comments being racially biased, I was >> making it clear that the comments may be nationalist (since they are >> about China), but are not about the ethnicity of the people, as you >> clearly understand that people of the same race make fine products >> outside the country in question. >Really? Do you not see any bias when one attempts to demean another >culture by using words such as Western "babysitters," "7 yr olds and >political prisoners" (as if this is even commonplace) and suggesting >that many cultures do not have the Western concept of quality, while >ignoring other factors (such as income-level) and the fact that >Western suppliers have also put out some really crappy products. > Like during Stalin’s time, industrialization is being forced upon the > people. Inefficient and imprecise product is natural in the face of > such outside pressures and underpaid/underskilled workers.
This is absolutely incorrect. Chinese citizens are some of the most hard-working, motivated people I’ve come across. Capitalism is everywhere, and everyone is trying to sell something. The factory workers are amazingly productive. IMO, you can never get the same productivity out of a N.A. or even a worker in Mexico. As for "underskilled," these workers are trained for their jobs, which they perform with great accuracy and consistency. Bad quality is usually the result of poor product or assembly design, not the worker. >Does a Japanese visitor to a US factory who notices the obesity, lower >productivity and literacy have the right to call American workers "fat >and lazy…and stupid too!"? No prejudice there, right? > Correct prejudice is not bad (if you like, I will go into a lengthy > discussion of why prejudice is necessary and desirable to be able to > function in society).
Actually, it’s fine with me if the original posters acknowledged their prejudices. However, to make obviously demeaning statements attributed to ethnic cultural factors, while touting Western supremecy and all the while claiming to be unprejudiced is what I consider to be distasteful. > However, this has nothing to do with the workers. I took > "babysitters" to mean "independent QC." That you took it as a racial > epithet would mean to me that you are high strung.
And the insinuation of the word "babysit" to refer to supervising of a particular adult ethnic population by Westerners is not demeaning? Since the > discussion was regarding western companies building in China, it would > be natural that the outside QC be provided from westerners of the > origin of the HQs country. I see nothing sinister in that.
No. Nor is the supervisory relationship in any functional area. Yet, you wouldn’t call that "babysitting." > Add in the *proof* of children and slaves working in the factories > (unless you don’t count the admission of the gvt to this as proof), > and I can’t see how it is racist.
Firstly, every society in its development stage used underage workers. That’s why we have age laws in N.A. But to imply that it is common to find children and slaves working in a Chinese factory is a great stretch. It is, in fact, exceedingly rare. To imply that China cannot make anything functional beyond labels is demeaning. > The government in China seems quite proud that they can force slaves > to work and the people in the US will buy the products. The US gvt in > the pockets of business don’t care. They threaten rescinding "most > favored nation" trading status, but it is always an idle threat > because the American business make money off the exploited in China.
Marc, there are over a billion people in China. *Legit* inexpensive labour is not difficult to find. No reputable company should have to source from a factory employing such labour. > I think that speaks worse about the Americans than the Chinese. Is > that racist?
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make. The Western world is exploiting China, and other underdeveloped countries. It is a win-win for both countries, but a far, far greater win for the West. Chip
>> They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that > the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED > to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product > development you’d know that. > Haha. And didn’t I just say that most manufacturers in China have > holding companies in Hong Kong? They do this for financial and tax > reasons. Allied’s office might be in HK, but they BUILD their tools > in China. If you were experienced with sourcing from China, you’d know > that.
I get the feeling you don’t even know where they do their tooling. But take a molder like nypro. The tooling is done in hong kong then moved to a production facility in china. same with TGP/WGP. > Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities > nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here. > I believe that will be up by the end of next week. In the meantime > send them an email and ask. They just delivered a medical grade tool > to a major customer.
Come on, they’ll tell me anything I want to hear, that’s the culture. I don’t know of single one of these sorts of companies where the running joke of ‘we can do it’ doesn’t apply. I’d have to spend a $100K with them before I would really know what their abilities are.
>> >> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > >> and assembled in china. > > I work with 100s of these products every day. > But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going > through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc > etc. > Yeah, I do more than that. I’m part of the management team.
Damn I was spot on. > So I hear when things go wrong, and products are delayed.
You don’t hear every thing. Count on it. The engineers don’t even tell their immediate managers everything they deal with. > I read the reports submitted by the engineers.
After being approved by their manager. Try talking to them directly, being friends with them, going to lunch with them. Somehow being non-threating so they’ll talk openly in front of you. > I am involved in the > decision-making process of what to do. I work with all the > cross-functional areas. We do not behave unethically. We do not > approve any product we know has not passed the required tests. We do > not cheat or falsify safety reports.
How do you know that what you look at hasn’t been ’spun’? That the reports out china aren’t false? Often only the engineer and his direct manager knows the parts and report don’t match. There are deadlines to meet and correcting the tool just isn’t an option. I was so spot on it’s scary. > > Some suppliers are > > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > > then source from somewhere else! > Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate > drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor > engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates, > It doesn’t happen very often, but if the product is not right, my > company will delay the launch UNTIL it is right.
If you even know about it. > the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has > to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. > And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later. > Tsk, tsk. That’s terrible. YOU are the problem if you approve a > product you know is bad. As an engineer, you are the one standing > between the supplier and the consumer and have the professional duty > to reject a product, especially if it is safety-related. Just say NO. > Hehe.
If you only knew. I was one of the few who wouldn’t stand for bad product, who demanded tools were fixed, that we use good suppliers, etc etc etc. It’s political sucide is what it is. I just didn’t care about that. I cared about the product. Most people however care about their jobs more than their integrity and do as they are told and do what it takes to keep their jobs. Like the experience daniel posted, mine was similiar, I was over-ridden and the product pushed through. Of course there were some other nasty aspects I’m not going to discuss. When the information gets to you, it is most certainly neatly spun and dried. Get down in the trenches, get the engineers to speak freely to you off the record. I’ll wager they will have experiences more like daniel and myself. > > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > > enormous. > Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never > in the trenches. > Brent, please. Repeating the same non-sequitur does not improve the > quality of the argument. We will be making clean-air 2 cycle engines > in China. Upon showing the quality of the machining of the pistons to > a major US manufacturer of engines, the engineer admitted that his > pistons, sourced from the US weren’t as good. That’s what happens > when you invest in the right type of equipment and have the right > quality systems in place.
That’s nice. But machining of that nature is an automated process. It’s equipment driven. All that appears to have occured is that a better CNC machine was set up in the china facility. I’ll wager that was done to be close to the casting operation….. > >> If the product is ODM’d and a name > >> just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. > *laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china > Yes, we have test-labs in China. Stocked with the right equipment. > Totally independent from the manufacturing, and the sourcing > functions. There is no incentive for the lab test manager to lie or > falsify reports.
I am sure you believe that. And it doesn’t have to falsified reports, just the test proceedures and the people running the tests. I’ve had product tested in china with the ‘right equipment’ etc etc and get much different results from the testing in the USA. Even when nothing was falisfied. > And once it’s all tooled up there is too > much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your > commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The > ODMs know that. > ODM products can be sourced product that are already past the product > development stage, which makes evaluation simple. Likewise, for > products in the product development stage, you would chose the > supplier that has the complementary assets to ensure design, and > production are seamless. I cannot understate how important it is to > deal with reputable companies.
None of this invalidates my statement that once the tooling is done, etc etc, when the product is being tested, it is impossible just to pick up and walk away.
>> > Yet they are still nowhere near the skill and expertise level of a > > US/CDN/Euro trained engineer. They are merely used as grunts. > Finance people don’t care about that. Neither do CEOs, neither does > wall-street. > In my experience, PRC engineers are used as grunts. Junior engineers. > The senior engineers have the real experience and credentials from a > notable institution.
So? An engineer is an engineer to those concerned about cost. Exeperience and knowledge is irrelvant.
>> I would be surprised if they didn’t. That doesn’t mean they don’t have > to watch over them. I worked for a company on the same order of Siemens, > with the same sort of quality reputation. > In any production process you have to watch over the quality. It > doesn’t matter whether it occurs in the US or China, or Germany.
Funny, the effort to get parts that met spec out of the US was many orders of magnitude below that of china. Germany was a little less than the US. And once the quality was there, it didn’t go away. In China, the problem would be solved, the reappear a week or two later when they went back to doing things the way they wanted. > The > notion that manufacturing in China could only be "at the very best, > ordinary" is laughable. What if I told you that they were down to a > six sigma level of quality? Still ordinary?
Six sigma is a paperwork joke of image. Just like the image you attempt above. A buzzword. All the mainland china parts and assemblies I’ve seen were sig-sigma *wink* *wink*. It’s real easy when the inspection reports come out of china. I forgot, you believe those inspection reports are honest. I suggest you get some measuring equipment and start doing it yourself. > > They are unacceptable in my industry too. Yet we still somehow manage > > to manufacture in China. > Spoken again like someone who isn’t in the trenches and doesn’t get the > beat down on them because the mainland china molder started heating the > resin so hot it was like shooting water to up their cycle time, AGAIN. > Hehe. Sounds like you were asleep at the wheel. If you do not have > the resources to MONITOR the facility, the least you could do would be > to select a large reputable vendor.
Again, where you gonna get a few hundred engineers from the USA willing to live in industrial, cut through the air with a knife, mainland china?
>> > From any industry/company that has failed to sufficiently allocate the > > necessary resources to quality. > Spoken like someone who has NEVER tried to get a quality product out > of a mainland china facility on time. > Try a couple of hundred products.
First sign your product is not complex. > The difference is you have to have > the right people, knowledge and supply chain management skills to get > the job done right.
Spoken like someone who isn’t in the trenches. I can tell by the way you write that you are rather far removed from the development and design engineers who have to deal daily with the problems. It sounds like all you get to hear are the stories spun by the managers of such people. Well in private these managers know how bad it is, they just care more for their image and the internal politics than for the product they are responsible for. Those who stand up for the product are few and far between. > You talk like the person that gets > the politically spun story from the gutless engineering manager who > cares more about looking good politically inside the company than his > integrity or the product he puts out. > Maybe if you had a more positive attitude and _worked_ toward fixing > the problems rather than just complaining, you would have been alot > more successful.
Now I know I hit the target dead on. You’re the type I feel sorry for, the one who just doesn’t know any better. The type I hate acts like you do, but knows better. Anyway, I am sure you are quite successful with the internal politics of your company. I am sure you made every effort to *appear* to have fixed the problems. While you got credit for fixing them, some poor engineer is likely still dealing with it once it fell off the radar. > > My high-end GM product, "proudly made in the US" was a shoddily > > constructed clap-trap compared to my Lexus V8 coupe. So much for > > alleged "Western" focus on quality. > Lexus is western quality. When it comes to manufacturing, Japan has > many companies that follow the western technical aspects of putting > out a quality product to the letter. > Please do not oversimplify. Perhaps you think there are Western > babysitters at the Toyota/Lexus production facilities in Japan too.
More proof you don’t know what goes on in the trenches. Such idiotic statements speak of a total lack of knowledge. Japanese companies do not have people from the US or Europe overing them like that. > Quality starts with product knowledge, not TQM, or Six-Sigma.
Finally you say something correct. But the best design in the world has to be made to spec. > It is > laughable to attribute a focus on quality to any particular ethnic > culture.
No one has. But there are trends of quality in given NATIONAL cultures. The chinese engineers I worked with in the USA shared the frustration for the practices in mainland china for instance. > These companies adopted all that was > good from the USA, Germany, where ever else. These companies listened > while companies like GM didn’t. > Yeah, there is no way the Japanese could have come up with anything > original on their own <rolling eyes>.
That’s not what I said, king of straw. I said they adopted what was good. That doesn’t mean they didn’t do anything on their own. quite the opposite in fact.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall >> plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on >> mainland china. > Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com > They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. > They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site > should be up by the end of next week. > They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that > the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED > to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product > development you’d know that.
Haha. And didn’t I just say that most manufacturers in China have holding companies in Hong Kong? They do this for financial and tax reasons. Allied’s office might be in HK, but they BUILD their tools in China. If you were experienced with sourcing from China, you’d know that. > Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities > nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here.
I believe that will be up by the end of next week. In the meantime send them an email and ask. They just delivered a medical grade tool to a major customer. Chip
> So, Chip, did you read those URLs and learn that UL does, in fact, require > that Chinese — and ONLY Chinese — products bear UL-supplied, date-coded, > rotating-design holographic labels (which you swore wasn’t the case) > specifically because of the approval-falsification problem (which you > swore doesn’t exist)? > –DS
I believe I’ve responded to this in another post. Rgds, Chip
> >> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced >> and assembled in china. > I work with 100s of these products every day. > But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going > through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc > etc.
Yeah, I do more than that. I’m part of the management team. So I hear when things go wrong, and products are delayed. I read the reports submitted by the engineers. I am involved in the decision-making process of what to do. I work with all the cross-functional areas. We do not behave unethically. We do not approve any product we know has not passed the required tests. We do not cheat or falsify safety reports. > Some suppliers are > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > then source from somewhere else! > Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate > drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor > engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates,
It doesn’t happen very often, but if the product is not right, my company will delay the launch UNTIL it is right. > the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has > to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. > And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later.
Tsk, tsk. That’s terrible. YOU are the problem if you approve a product you know is bad. As an engineer, you are the one standing between the supplier and the consumer and have the professional duty to reject a product, especially if it is safety-related. Just say NO. Hehe. >> Even if the big US comany does care the amount >> of vigilance required is enormous. > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > enormous. > Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never > in the trenches.
Brent, please. Repeating the same non-sequitur does not improve the quality of the argument. We will be making clean-air 2 cycle engines in China. Upon showing the quality of the machining of the pistons to a major US manufacturer of engines, the engineer admitted that his pistons, sourced from the US weren’t as good. That’s what happens when you invest in the right type of equipment and have the right quality systems in place. >> If the product is ODM’d and a name >> just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. > *laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china
Yes, we have test-labs in China. Stocked with the right equipment. Totally independent from the manufacturing, and the sourcing functions. There is no incentive for the lab test manager to lie or falsify reports. or better yet trust > the ODM to sign off on it.
Our customers do trust us to sign off on products. Some have their own labs independently verifying the results. <shrug> And once it’s all tooled up there is too > much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your > commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The > ODMs know that.
ODM products can be sourced product that are already past the product development stage, which makes evaluation simple. Likewise, for products in the product development stage, you would chose the supplier that has the complementary assets to ensure design, and production are seamless. I cannot understate how important it is to deal with reputable companies. Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> Besides, if we continue to buy imports, where will our children work? >> > Well I don’t think you’d want your kids to work in blue-collar labour >> > jobs anyway. That’s what free-trade brings, increased wealth for all. >> If you think it’s just blue collar labor going to china, you are mistaken. >> From what I hear an engineer in china is paid 2500 rmb (~$300) a month. > Yet they are still nowhere near the skill and expertise level of a > US/CDN/Euro trained engineer. They are merely used as grunts. > Finance people don’t care about that. Neither do CEOs, neither does > wall-street.
In my experience, PRC engineers are used as grunts. Junior engineers. The senior engineers have the real experience and credentials from a notable institution. Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > I hope you’re joking. Companies such as Johnson Micromotors, VTECH, >> > Flextronics etc, all have excellent quality out of China and make >> > complicated products. >> Didn’t deal with flextronics personally, never heard any glowing >> recommendations from those who did. At very best they were ordinary. > Really? Do you think a big quality-focussed company like Siemens > would source from Flextronics if they were "ordinary." > I would be surprised if they didn’t. That doesn’t mean they don’t have > to watch over them. I worked for a company on the same order of Siemens, > with the same sort of quality reputation.
In any production process you have to watch over the quality. It doesn’t matter whether it occurs in the US or China, or Germany. The notion that manufacturing in China could only be "at the very best, ordinary" is laughable. What if I told you that they were down to a six sigma level of quality? Still ordinary? The difference between you > and me, is that I was in the trenches and saw all the shit that was being > pulled. You have never been.
LOL. Now you’re speaking for me? > They are unacceptable in my industry too. Yet we still somehow manage > to manufacture in China. > Spoken again like someone who isn’t in the trenches and doesn’t get the > beat down on them because the mainland china molder started heating the > resin so hot it was like shooting water to up their cycle time, AGAIN.
Hehe. Sounds like you were asleep at the wheel. If you do not have the resources to MONITOR the facility, the least you could do would be to select a large reputable vendor. Chip
> >> > Bad quality can come from anywhere on the planet. >> True, but where is more likely to come from? > From any industry/company that has failed to sufficiently allocate the > necessary resources to quality. > Spoken like someone who has NEVER tried to get a quality product out > of a mainland china facility on time.
Try a couple of hundred products. The difference is you have to have the right people, knowledge and supply chain management skills to get the job done right. You talk like the person that gets > the politically spun story from the gutless engineering manager who > cares more about looking good politically inside the company than his > integrity or the product he puts out.
Maybe if you had a more positive attitude and _worked_ toward fixing the problems rather than just complaining, you would have been alot more successful. > My high-end GM product, "proudly made in the US" was a shoddily > constructed clap-trap compared to my Lexus V8 coupe. So much for > alleged "Western" focus on quality. > Lexus is western quality. When it comes to manufacturing, Japan has > many companies that follow the western technical aspects of putting > out a quality product to the letter.
Please do not oversimplify. Perhaps you think there are Western babysitters at the Toyota/Lexus production facilities in Japan too. Quality starts with product knowledge, not TQM, or Six-Sigma. It is laughable to attribute a focus on quality to any particular ethnic culture. These companies adopted all that was > good from the USA, Germany, where ever else. These companies listened > while companies like GM didn’t.
Yeah, there is no way the Japanese could have come up with anything original on their own <rolling eyes>. GM/Ford et al, probably learn much more about how to build a quality car from taking apart a Lexus than vice-versa. Companies like GM think quality is > some buzz word, the kind of company that would make their product > in china if they could, if their
So if the West was so focussed on quality, why did it take a Japanese company to provide it? Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> The Chinese are great. In Singapore, they make the best routers in > >> the world (Cisco). WorldCom (RIP) and others also have manufacturing > >> facilities employing a vast majority of Chinese workers who turn out > >> fine products. > >To anyone who has delt with such things singapore is superior to > >mainland china. > >Often tooling is done in taiwan and singapore than moved to mainland > >china for production. > And my point (which it appears you agree with, I’m only restating for > others) is that the complaints against manufacturing have nothing to > do with the ethnicity of the people making the product. For the > people complaining about your comments being racially biased, I was > making it clear that the comments may be nationalist (since they are > about China), but are not about the ethnicity of the people, as you > clearly understand that people of the same race make fine products > outside the country in question. >Really? Do you not see any bias when one attempts to demean another >culture by using words such as Western "babysitters," "7 yr olds and >political prisoners" (as if this is even commonplace) and suggesting >that many cultures do not have the Western concept of quality, while >ignoring other factors (such as income-level) and the fact that >Western suppliers have also put out some really crappy products.
China is the largest and most wealthy 3rd world nation. They have not yet "matured" to the level of much of the rest of the world. They are currently in (hopefully near the end of) what would have been the Stalin era in the USSR. Political prisoners, lies by the gvt to force working. Threats by the gvt with regard to many aspects of public and private life (jobs, free speech, children) which result in sanctions, incarceration or worse when not heeded. As true with Russia, it had a proud imperial age that ended when war left it vulnerable to a coup, resulting in a parliamentary dictatorship not related to communism, but called communism. Like during Stalin’s time, industrialization is being forced upon the people. Inefficient and imprecise product is natural in the face of such outside pressures and underpaid/underskilled workers. >Does a Japanese visitor to a US factory who notices the obesity, lower >productivity and literacy have the right to call American workers "fat >and lazy…and stupid too!"? No prejudice there, right?
Correct prejudice is not bad (if you like, I will go into a lengthy discussion of why prejudice is necessary and desirable to be able to function in society). Americans are fat. When you have a fat man with multiple heart attacks suing because he didn’t know that fried grease was bad for him, I’d say fat, lazy and stupid aren’t that far off. However, this has nothing to do with the workers. I took "babysitters" to mean "independent QC." That you took it as a racial epithet would mean to me that you are high strung. Since the discussion was regarding western companies building in China, it would be natural that the outside QC be provided from westerners of the origin of the HQs country. I see nothing sinister in that. The workers were not insulted any more than being accused of following the policies laid out for them to follow. Add in the *proof* of children and slaves working in the factories (unless you don’t count the admission of the gvt to this as proof), and I can’t see how it is racist. The government in China seems quite proud that they can force slaves to work and the people in the US will buy the products. The US gvt in the pockets of business don’t care. They threaten rescinding "most favored nation" trading status, but it is always an idle threat because the American business make money off the exploited in China. I think that speaks worse about the Americans than the Chinese. Is that racist? >Incidentally, Singapore is a multi-cultural society.
Yes, it is. What ethnicity forms the majority? Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"
> > > > products manufactured in China use UL-supplied hologram certification labels > > > instead of allowing the manufacturer to make their own.. > > As if those weren’t counterfitted inside a week. > UL does NOT require UL-supplied hologram certification labels for > Chinese made products. > Here’s another relevant UL URL. Read it and grow a clue: > http://www.ul.com/about/wtalk/wtalkv7n4/customs.html
1) I was disputing the original contention that (all) electrical products sourced from China must use UL-supplied holgram certification labels. (Your URL confirms this) 2) I was disputing your original position that "fake" safety certification was common-place for Chinese products. (Your URL confirms this: "Although the growth in counterfeiting activity represents an extremely small fraction of the 14 billion UL Marks that appear on products worldwide each year, UL has zero tolerance for counterfeiters." ) 3) If you deal with a large reputable supplier, UL supplied holographic labels are not necessary. My company manufactures over a billion $ worth of OEM/ODM/OBM electrical products, all of which is UL certified and inspected. We do not need UL supplied labels. Perhaps you were dealing with amateurs? Chip
I think there are some technical obstacles in copying holograms like that – that’s why they use them on credit cards, etc. Of course, if people don’t know that the product is supposed to have the hologram on it, they might not notice if they stuck some cheesy fake non-hologram label on there.. — Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > This did seem to be a problem – enough so that UL started requiring that >> > products manufactured in China use UL-supplied hologram certification labels >> > instead of allowing the manufacturer to make their own.. >> As if those weren’t counterfitted inside a week. > UL does NOT require UL-supplied hologram certification labels for > Chinese made products. > I didn’t comment on if they were or weren’t. If they were, they would > have been counterfitted inside a week’s time. There is no such thing > is patents, IP, copyright, or anything else like that in china.
> I think there are some technical obstacles in copying holograms like that – > that’s why they use them on credit cards, etc.
All it would take is one corporation to source a hologram label in china and then the forgers would know all they need to… > Of course, if people don’t know that the product is supposed to have the > hologram on it, they might not notice if they stuck some cheesy fake > non-hologram label on there..
Yep few people would know what the hologram is supposed to look like, so they can just put anything on it.
So, Chip, did you read those URLs and learn that UL does, in fact, require that Chinese — and ONLY Chinese — products bear UL-supplied, date-coded, rotating-design holographic labels (which you swore wasn’t the case) specifically because of the approval-falsification problem (which you swore doesn’t exist)? –DS
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > And vice-versa, what’s your point? > > There are many decent tooling vendors in China. > Not vice-versa. Tooling generally occurs in Taiwan, Singapore, and maybe > Hong-Kong. (in rare cases the USA) The tools are then moved to mainland > china. For real crap everything is done in mainland china. > And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall > plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on > mainland china. > Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com > They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. > They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site > should be up by the end of next week.
They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product development you’d know that. Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here.
I have a different view of corporations. Just like there are good and bad people, there are good and bad behaving corporations. But I don’t think of them all as necessarily "greedy" or bad. Corporations are extentions of ourselves in the sense that they act in their self interest just like individuals do. I do my best to provide for my family and I’m a steward over our resources. I try not to buy things we don’t need and try to shop for the best values. I HATE paying too much for anything. But I don’t blame sellers for trying to be as profitable as possible. They seek the highest prices they can get and we as consumers seek the lowest. It’s in a company’s interest to find the least expensive labor, material and taxes as possible to maximize profits. There’s nothing greedy about that. I do have my misgivings about it being in our national interest to trade so much with China. I think a lot of money is going into China and it’s not benefitting the avg. Chinese as much as it’s building a new 800 lb. gorilla (Chinese military might) in the far east. Maybe we hope they’ll turn away from communism with all of this open trade. We’ll see.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I try to live a completely Chinese free lifestyle. Not a simple task > and it is getting more difficult to do all the time. I would rather > buy used than buy anything made in China. I have had enough > disappointments with Chinese made products to last a lifetime. > Besides, if we continue to buy imports, where will our children work? > Peter > I am with you, Peter. The source of the problem is the greedy nature of > corporations that manufacture products in China. > They don’t give a damn about you or your kids. Their immature 18-year-old > kids drive $60,000-SUV’s and your kids take the city bus to school. > It’s the age of Enron and Worldcom. If the country security is threatened, > your kids would be out in the front line while the CEO’s kids are sunbathing > somewhere safe. > However, we have some choices (not many): don’t buy unless you really really > need to. And make sure to see where the product is made before buying it. If > millions consumers act on this philosophy, the message would be taken more > seriously. Until then, those greedy CEO’s would continue to expect the > American consumers to bend over.
> > I also entrust my life to the parts used in the manufacture of the > vehicle. In the case on my Pontiac GTP, GM seems to be using steering > racks that abruptly fail. (www.nhtsa.com) I wonder if these > defective steering racks come from China. Bad quality can come from > anywhere on the planet. > Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones > come from China, and good ones come from North America.
We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers?
>> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones > come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers?
A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > The question concerned *CHINESE* components. See the subject line? > > And all the comments concerned Western surveillance. See the > thread? > > Do you think that Japanese surveillance would not do as well? > You’re splitting hairs. Japanese surveillance, despite Japan’s location in > the East, *is* Western surveillance. Don’t believe me? Who do you think > built Japan’s economy (after, of course, flattening it)? > –DS > The *HORSESHIT ALARM* just went off. > The US, inspite of all the historical revisionists, did NOT rebuild Japans > economy after the second world war. The Japanese people did. Japans economy > pre-WWII was superior to the US, their manufacturing sectors and engineering > were equal and superior to the US. Remember the *GREAT DEPRESSION*? Besides, > today Japans economy is enormously stronger than the US’s, again because of > the Japanese people, not because *BENEVOLENT WHITES FELT PITY* after WWII. > Give your head a shake and stop trying to preach social economics. > You lose ground when your arguments turn into racially based "we’re smarter > because we’re white" exchanges of historically revised bullshit. You should > try to stick more to the topic of this NG; Chrysler automobiles. Some > Chinese parts are cheap crap. Some are excellent. Some American parts are > cheap crap. Some are excellent. It has nothing to do with *western > (read:WHITE OVERSEER) babysitting. It has nothing to do with culture or > racial background. It has everything to do with who is calling the shots at > the top. > Your racist and Americentric views of the world reflect poorly on you. You > stated your opinion and now it’s time to stop trying to prove evryone else > wrong and move on. > — > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Very nicely said. D. Stern lost all his credibility… It’s sad that too many of those racists and snobs are in the newsgroup. But I like to say that I did appreciate some of his auto advices he had offer for sometime.
> Very nicely said. D. Stern lost all his credibility… It’s sad that > too many of those racists and snobs are in the newsgroup. But I like > to say that I did appreciate some of his auto advices he had offer for > sometime.
How is one racist against something (a company, a corporation) that has no race, only a location(s)? The answer is one cannot. Companies employ people of all races, nationalities, what-have-you and the companies have cultures of their own. Often companies that are located in the same area(s) of the world have similiar cultures. It’s quite obvious once one works in world wide product development. People who work for these companies, regardless of their background, where their ancestors came from, where they live, will generally follow the culture of the company they work for. This is what one sees working in product development in gobal sense. Race is simply irrelvant. A redharing, a diverision from the real interest of the differences in *company* cultures and how that shows up in the end result. (the product). Basically if you were to take people from say new york and ship them over to work in a factory in an industrial city in mainland china working for a hong kong HQ’d company making widgets there shouldn’t be any difference in the quality of the widgets produced provided both the new and old set of workers were treated in the same manner.
> >> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones >> come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
Funny how you always jump to the defence of US suppliers, and denigrate Asian suppliers…. US suppliers had to increase their pitiful quality standards, no doubt from years of loose tolerance requirements and lax IQC standards of Big 3 automakers, in order to supply to Japanese automakers. Want an actual real-life reference of Japanese babysitting "Western quality"? Miracle from the East – The Boxster lives thanks largely to some bossy guys from Japan Autoweek December 2, 1996 Excerpts: "You’d never guess that the first new Porsche in 20 years – a pearl of everything good about German engineering and automotive design – is so blatantly, shamelessly Japanese." "Imagine this scene on Porsche’s assembly line: Workers wearing bushy mustaches and the traditional leather aprons of German tradesmen, being scolded by finger-pointing Japanese men with white shirts and blue ties." "Wiedeking [Porsche CEO] credits almost unbelievable improvements in efficiency at Porsche to the Shin-Gijutsu consultants from Japan. For months the sensei raised hell on the factory floor in a relentless quest to purge muda [waste]." "Wiedeking was aware of Shin-Gijutsu – a cadre of retired Toyota executives that was taking Japan’s lean production message to the world. Apparently Toyota doesn’t consider small sports car builders a competitive threat, because when it created a list of companies that Shin-Gijutsu could not assist, Porsche was the only automaker that was not on the list. After several trips to Japan, Wiedeking finally persuaded Shin-Gijutsu chiefs Yoshiki Iwata and Chihiro Nakao to go to Zuffenhausen." "After dozens of confrontations and several skips and starts, Chihiro Nakao gradually saw his way of thinking take hold in Zuffenhausen. He and his associates became less strident with the Germans, but Nakao never was comfortable with Porsche’s claim that it made the best sports cars in the world. "How can you say this?" he would ask Wiedeking. "It’s not true." Perhaps it was a semantic disagreement over the precise meaning of "best."" "…since 1992, the number of man-hours required to build a 911 has fallen from 120 to 72, and it’s expected to fall 10 more hours by the time the new one is launched. On July 27, 1994, the first defect-free 911 rolled off the line…" "The simplest measure is Porsche’s bottom line. In 1995, after four years of losses totalling more than $300 million, the company earned a small profit – on roughly the same production volume that left a huge loss in 1992." "The Shin-Gijutsu now visit Porsche four times a year "for a little scolding," according to Wiedeking. But before they went home to Japan, Porsche prepared a festive send-off at the test track at Weissach. The company brought out Porsches spanning five decades, along with its best drivers, starting with Hans Stuck." "Some of the Japanese had more than enough after their first hot lap; others gleefully lined up for more. But when they got back to Japan, Nakao, Iwata and several associates went out and bought new Porsches." Chip …whose Lexus is "Western Quality" Bwhahaaahha!
>> > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again. > Funny how you always jump to the defence of US suppliers, and > denigrate Asian suppliers….
That is a factual correction not a defense. > US suppliers had to increase their pitiful quality standards, no doubt > from years of loose tolerance requirements and lax IQC standards of > Big 3 automakers, in order to supply to Japanese automakers.
I think everyone is well aware that GM gets the crap, and the better parts off the line go to the toyota,honda,Mazda, Ford, etc. It’s all about what the customer is willing to pay for. > Want an actual real-life reference of Japanese babysitting "Western > quality"? > Miracle from the East > – The Boxster lives thanks largely to some bossy guys from Japan > Autoweek December 2, 1996 > Excerpts:
So what? thanks for proving that Japan and Germany are more comparible than china is to either.
> >> Non-sequitir. The issue is brake rotors, and we KNOW that crappy ones >> come from China, and good ones come from North America. > We also KNOW that crappy cars come from US. Good ones come come Japan. > Should we also let Jap babysit our lazy and stupid workers? > A large amount of the production of Japanese makes sold in the US is in > the US and uses US suppliers. Try again.
HAHA… You are right. They ARE babysitting our lazy and stupid workers. Thank you for proving my point. haha
> > The legal liability alone will prevent any reputable company from > taking this risk. Think about it. > I agree that "false" quality labelling occurs, but these products > rarely make it to N.A., and never on reputable brand products. > I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > and assembled in china.
I work with 100s of these products every day. Some suppliers are strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, then source from somewhere else! Even if the big US comany does care the amount > of vigilance required is enormous.
The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be enormous. If the product is ODM’d and a name > just put on it, the process is even more difficult.
Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. Chip
> When I lived in HK, I went to a factory where they made knock offs > of expensive Italian shoes. When I asked about the "made in Italy" > labels being glued into the inner sole I was told (in Chinese) "The > labels were imported from Italy so it’s OK."
The way you wrote that I can just hear it. Sounds so much like the excuses I heard for other things. Like the company in china that wanted to violate the patents on torx plus. The engineer in charge of the screws on that project refused to put the paperwork through on this vendor. They eventually made it into the product (without any in the US ever signing off on it) as regular torx (at least that made them legal) and with various other problems. > It’s a systemic problem.
It certainly is..
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > The Chinese are great. In Singapore, they make the best routers in >> > the world (Cisco). WorldCom (RIP) and others also have manufacturing >> > facilities employing a vast majority of Chinese workers who turn out >> > fine products. >> To anyone who has delt with such things singapore is superior to >> mainland china. >> Often tooling is done in taiwan and singapore than moved to mainland >> china for production. > And vice-versa, what’s your point? > There are many decent tooling vendors in China. > Not vice-versa. Tooling generally occurs in Taiwan, Singapore, and maybe > Hong-Kong. (in rare cases the USA) The tools are then moved to mainland > china. For real crap everything is done in mainland china. > And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall > plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on > mainland china.
Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site should be up by the end of next week. Chip
>> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > and assembled in china. > I work with 100s of these products every day.
But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc etc. > Some suppliers are > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > then source from somewhere else!
Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates, the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later. > Even if the big US comany does care the amount > of vigilance required is enormous. > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > enormous.
Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never in the trenches. > If the product is ODM’d and a name > just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere.
*laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china or better yet trust the ODM to sign off on it. And once it’s all tooled up there is too much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The ODMs know that.
I have a different view of corporations. Just like there are good and bad people, there are good and bad behaving corporations. But I don’t think of them all as necessarily "greedy" or bad. Corporations are extentions of ourselves in the sense that they act in their self interest just like individuals do. I do my best to provide for my family and I’m a steward over our resources. I try not to buy things we don’t need and try to shop for the best values. I HATE paying too much for anything. But I don’t blame sellers for trying to be as profitable as possible. They seek the highest prices they can get and we as consumers seek the lowest. It’s in a company’s interest to find the least expensive labor, material and taxes as possible to maximize profits. There’s nothing greedy about that. I do have my misgivings about it being in our national interest to trade so much with China. I think a lot of money is going into China and it’s not benefitting the avg. Chinese as much as it’s building a new 800 lb. gorilla (Chinese military might) in the far east. Maybe we hope they’ll turn away from communism with all of this open trade. We’ll see.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I try to live a completely Chinese free lifestyle. Not a simple task > and it is getting more difficult to do all the time. I would rather > buy used than buy anything made in China. I have had enough > disappointments with Chinese made products to last a lifetime. > Besides, if we continue to buy imports, where will our children work? > Peter > I am with you, Peter. The source of the problem is the greedy nature of > corporations that manufacture products in China. > They don’t give a damn about you or your kids. Their immature 18-year-old > kids drive $60,000-SUV’s and your kids take the city bus to school. > It’s the age of Enron and Worldcom. If the country security is threatened, > your kids would be out in the front line while the CEO’s kids are sunbathing > somewhere safe. > However, we have some choices (not many): don’t buy unless you really really > need to. And make sure to see where the product is made before buying it. If > millions consumers act on this philosophy, the message would be taken more > seriously. Until then, those greedy CEO’s would continue to expect the > American consumers to bend over.
So, Chip, did you read those URLs and learn that UL does, in fact, require that Chinese — and ONLY Chinese — products bear UL-supplied, date-coded, rotating-design holographic labels (which you swore wasn’t the case) specifically because of the approval-falsification problem (which you swore doesn’t exist)? –DS
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > And vice-versa, what’s your point? > > There are many decent tooling vendors in China. > Not vice-versa. Tooling generally occurs in Taiwan, Singapore, and maybe > Hong-Kong. (in rare cases the USA) The tools are then moved to mainland > china. For real crap everything is done in mainland china. > And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall > plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on > mainland china. > Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com > They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. > They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site > should be up by the end of next week.
They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product development you’d know that. Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here.
I think there are some technical obstacles in copying holograms like that – that’s why they use them on credit cards, etc. Of course, if people don’t know that the product is supposed to have the hologram on it, they might not notice if they stuck some cheesy fake non-hologram label on there.. — Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > This did seem to be a problem – enough so that UL started requiring that >> > products manufactured in China use UL-supplied hologram certification labels >> > instead of allowing the manufacturer to make their own.. >> As if those weren’t counterfitted inside a week. > UL does NOT require UL-supplied hologram certification labels for > Chinese made products. > I didn’t comment on if they were or weren’t. If they were, they would > have been counterfitted inside a week’s time. There is no such thing > is patents, IP, copyright, or anything else like that in china.
> I think there are some technical obstacles in copying holograms like that – > that’s why they use them on credit cards, etc.
All it would take is one corporation to source a hologram label in china and then the forgers would know all they need to… > Of course, if people don’t know that the product is supposed to have the > hologram on it, they might not notice if they stuck some cheesy fake > non-hologram label on there..
Yep few people would know what the hologram is supposed to look like, so they can just put anything on it.
> > > > products manufactured in China use UL-supplied hologram certification labels > > > instead of allowing the manufacturer to make their own.. > > As if those weren’t counterfitted inside a week. > UL does NOT require UL-supplied hologram certification labels for > Chinese made products. > Here’s another relevant UL URL. Read it and grow a clue: > http://www.ul.com/about/wtalk/wtalkv7n4/customs.html
1) I was disputing the original contention that (all) electrical products sourced from China must use UL-supplied holgram certification labels. (Your URL confirms this) 2) I was disputing your original position that "fake" safety certification was common-place for Chinese products. (Your URL confirms this: "Although the growth in counterfeiting activity represents an extremely small fraction of the 14 billion UL Marks that appear on products worldwide each year, UL has zero tolerance for counterfeiters." ) 3) If you deal with a large reputable supplier, UL supplied holographic labels are not necessary. My company manufactures over a billion $ worth of OEM/ODM/OBM electrical products, all of which is UL certified and inspected. We do not need UL supplied labels. Perhaps you were dealing with amateurs? Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> The Chinese are great. In Singapore, they make the best routers in > >> the world (Cisco). WorldCom (RIP) and others also have manufacturing > >> facilities employing a vast majority of Chinese workers who turn out > >> fine products. > >To anyone who has delt with such things singapore is superior to > >mainland china. > >Often tooling is done in taiwan and singapore than moved to mainland > >china for production. > And my point (which it appears you agree with, I’m only restating for > others) is that the complaints against manufacturing have nothing to > do with the ethnicity of the people making the product. For the > people complaining about your comments being racially biased, I was > making it clear that the comments may be nationalist (since they are > about China), but are not about the ethnicity of the people, as you > clearly understand that people of the same race make fine products > outside the country in question. >Really? Do you not see any bias when one attempts to demean another >culture by using words such as Western "babysitters," "7 yr olds and >political prisoners" (as if this is even commonplace) and suggesting >that many cultures do not have the Western concept of quality, while >ignoring other factors (such as income-level) and the fact that >Western suppliers have also put out some really crappy products.
China is the largest and most wealthy 3rd world nation. They have not yet "matured" to the level of much of the rest of the world. They are currently in (hopefully near the end of) what would have been the Stalin era in the USSR. Political prisoners, lies by the gvt to force working. Threats by the gvt with regard to many aspects of public and private life (jobs, free speech, children) which result in sanctions, incarceration or worse when not heeded. As true with Russia, it had a proud imperial age that ended when war left it vulnerable to a coup, resulting in a parliamentary dictatorship not related to communism, but called communism. Like during Stalin’s time, industrialization is being forced upon the people. Inefficient and imprecise product is natural in the face of such outside pressures and underpaid/underskilled workers. >Does a Japanese visitor to a US factory who notices the obesity, lower >productivity and literacy have the right to call American workers "fat >and lazy…and stupid too!"? No prejudice there, right?
Correct prejudice is not bad (if you like, I will go into a lengthy discussion of why prejudice is necessary and desirable to be able to function in society). Americans are fat. When you have a fat man with multiple heart attacks suing because he didn’t know that fried grease was bad for him, I’d say fat, lazy and stupid aren’t that far off. However, this has nothing to do with the workers. I took "babysitters" to mean "independent QC." That you took it as a racial epithet would mean to me that you are high strung. Since the discussion was regarding western companies building in China, it would be natural that the outside QC be provided from westerners of the origin of the HQs country. I see nothing sinister in that. The workers were not insulted any more than being accused of following the policies laid out for them to follow. Add in the *proof* of children and slaves working in the factories (unless you don’t count the admission of the gvt to this as proof), and I can’t see how it is racist. The government in China seems quite proud that they can force slaves to work and the people in the US will buy the products. The US gvt in the pockets of business don’t care. They threaten rescinding "most favored nation" trading status, but it is always an idle threat because the American business make money off the exploited in China. I think that speaks worse about the Americans than the Chinese. Is that racist? >Incidentally, Singapore is a multi-cultural society.
Yes, it is. What ethnicity forms the majority? Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"
> >> > Bad quality can come from anywhere on the planet. >> True, but where is more likely to come from? > From any industry/company that has failed to sufficiently allocate the > necessary resources to quality. > Spoken like someone who has NEVER tried to get a quality product out > of a mainland china facility on time.
Try a couple of hundred products. The difference is you have to have the right people, knowledge and supply chain management skills to get the job done right. You talk like the person that gets > the politically spun story from the gutless engineering manager who > cares more about looking good politically inside the company than his > integrity or the product he puts out.
Maybe if you had a more positive attitude and _worked_ toward fixing the problems rather than just complaining, you would have been alot more successful. > My high-end GM product, "proudly made in the US" was a shoddily > constructed clap-trap compared to my Lexus V8 coupe. So much for > alleged "Western" focus on quality. > Lexus is western quality. When it comes to manufacturing, Japan has > many companies that follow the western technical aspects of putting > out a quality product to the letter.
Please do not oversimplify. Perhaps you think there are Western babysitters at the Toyota/Lexus production facilities in Japan too. Quality starts with product knowledge, not TQM, or Six-Sigma. It is laughable to attribute a focus on quality to any particular ethnic culture. These companies adopted all that was > good from the USA, Germany, where ever else. These companies listened > while companies like GM didn’t.
Yeah, there is no way the Japanese could have come up with anything original on their own <rolling eyes>. GM/Ford et al, probably learn much more about how to build a quality car from taking apart a Lexus than vice-versa. Companies like GM think quality is > some buzz word, the kind of company that would make their product > in china if they could, if their
So if the West was so focussed on quality, why did it take a Japanese company to provide it? Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > I hope you’re joking. Companies such as Johnson Micromotors, VTECH, >> > Flextronics etc, all have excellent quality out of China and make >> > complicated products. >> Didn’t deal with flextronics personally, never heard any glowing >> recommendations from those who did. At very best they were ordinary. > Really? Do you think a big quality-focussed company like Siemens > would source from Flextronics if they were "ordinary." > I would be surprised if they didn’t. That doesn’t mean they don’t have > to watch over them. I worked for a company on the same order of Siemens, > with the same sort of quality reputation.
In any production process you have to watch over the quality. It doesn’t matter whether it occurs in the US or China, or Germany. The notion that manufacturing in China could only be "at the very best, ordinary" is laughable. What if I told you that they were down to a six sigma level of quality? Still ordinary? The difference between you > and me, is that I was in the trenches and saw all the shit that was being > pulled. You have never been.
LOL. Now you’re speaking for me? > They are unacceptable in my industry too. Yet we still somehow manage > to manufacture in China. > Spoken again like someone who isn’t in the trenches and doesn’t get the > beat down on them because the mainland china molder started heating the > resin so hot it was like shooting water to up their cycle time, AGAIN.
Hehe. Sounds like you were asleep at the wheel. If you do not have the resources to MONITOR the facility, the least you could do would be to select a large reputable vendor. Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> Besides, if we continue to buy imports, where will our children work? >> > Well I don’t think you’d want your kids to work in blue-collar labour >> > jobs anyway. That’s what free-trade brings, increased wealth for all. >> If you think it’s just blue collar labor going to china, you are mistaken. >> From what I hear an engineer in china is paid 2500 rmb (~$300) a month. > Yet they are still nowhere near the skill and expertise level of a > US/CDN/Euro trained engineer. They are merely used as grunts. > Finance people don’t care about that. Neither do CEOs, neither does > wall-street.
In my experience, PRC engineers are used as grunts. Junior engineers. The senior engineers have the real experience and credentials from a notable institution. Chip
> >> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced >> and assembled in china. > I work with 100s of these products every day. > But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going > through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc > etc.
Yeah, I do more than that. I’m part of the management team. So I hear when things go wrong, and products are delayed. I read the reports submitted by the engineers. I am involved in the decision-making process of what to do. I work with all the cross-functional areas. We do not behave unethically. We do not approve any product we know has not passed the required tests. We do not cheat or falsify safety reports. > Some suppliers are > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > then source from somewhere else! > Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate > drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor > engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates,
It doesn’t happen very often, but if the product is not right, my company will delay the launch UNTIL it is right. > the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has > to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. > And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later.
Tsk, tsk. That’s terrible. YOU are the problem if you approve a product you know is bad. As an engineer, you are the one standing between the supplier and the consumer and have the professional duty to reject a product, especially if it is safety-related. Just say NO. Hehe. >> Even if the big US comany does care the amount >> of vigilance required is enormous. > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > enormous. > Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never > in the trenches.
Brent, please. Repeating the same non-sequitur does not improve the quality of the argument. We will be making clean-air 2 cycle engines in China. Upon showing the quality of the machining of the pistons to a major US manufacturer of engines, the engineer admitted that his pistons, sourced from the US weren’t as good. That’s what happens when you invest in the right type of equipment and have the right quality systems in place. >> If the product is ODM’d and a name >> just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. > *laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china
Yes, we have test-labs in China. Stocked with the right equipment. Totally independent from the manufacturing, and the sourcing functions. There is no incentive for the lab test manager to lie or falsify reports. or better yet trust > the ODM to sign off on it.
Our customers do trust us to sign off on products. Some have their own labs independently verifying the results. <shrug> And once it’s all tooled up there is too > much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your > commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The > ODMs know that.
ODM products can be sourced product that are already past the product development stage, which makes evaluation simple. Likewise, for products in the product development stage, you would chose the supplier that has the complementary assets to ensure design, and production are seamless. I cannot understate how important it is to deal with reputable companies. Chip
> So, Chip, did you read those URLs and learn that UL does, in fact, require > that Chinese — and ONLY Chinese — products bear UL-supplied, date-coded, > rotating-design holographic labels (which you swore wasn’t the case) > specifically because of the approval-falsification problem (which you > swore doesn’t exist)? > –DS
I believe I’ve responded to this in another post. Rgds, Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> And if you think there are, name one decent tool and mold shop for thin-wall >> plastics that can meet fine tolerances and maintain perfect cosmetics on >> mainland china. > Sure. Allied Tool Technologies: www.alliedtooltec.com > They are capable of making medical grade plastic tooling. > They are in the process of updating their website, and the full site > should be up by the end of next week. > They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that > the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED > to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product > development you’d know that.
Haha. And didn’t I just say that most manufacturers in China have holding companies in Hong Kong? They do this for financial and tax reasons. Allied’s office might be in HK, but they BUILD their tools in China. If you were experienced with sourcing from China, you’d know that. > Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities > nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here.
I believe that will be up by the end of next week. In the meantime send them an email and ask. They just delivered a medical grade tool to a major customer. Chip
>> > From any industry/company that has failed to sufficiently allocate the > > necessary resources to quality. > Spoken like someone who has NEVER tried to get a quality product out > of a mainland china facility on time. > Try a couple of hundred products.
First sign your product is not complex. > The difference is you have to have > the right people, knowledge and supply chain management skills to get > the job done right.
Spoken like someone who isn’t in the trenches. I can tell by the way you write that you are rather far removed from the development and design engineers who have to deal daily with the problems. It sounds like all you get to hear are the stories spun by the managers of such people. Well in private these managers know how bad it is, they just care more for their image and the internal politics than for the product they are responsible for. Those who stand up for the product are few and far between. > You talk like the person that gets > the politically spun story from the gutless engineering manager who > cares more about looking good politically inside the company than his > integrity or the product he puts out. > Maybe if you had a more positive attitude and _worked_ toward fixing > the problems rather than just complaining, you would have been alot > more successful.
Now I know I hit the target dead on. You’re the type I feel sorry for, the one who just doesn’t know any better. The type I hate acts like you do, but knows better. Anyway, I am sure you are quite successful with the internal politics of your company. I am sure you made every effort to *appear* to have fixed the problems. While you got credit for fixing them, some poor engineer is likely still dealing with it once it fell off the radar. > > My high-end GM product, "proudly made in the US" was a shoddily > > constructed clap-trap compared to my Lexus V8 coupe. So much for > > alleged "Western" focus on quality. > Lexus is western quality. When it comes to manufacturing, Japan has > many companies that follow the western technical aspects of putting > out a quality product to the letter. > Please do not oversimplify. Perhaps you think there are Western > babysitters at the Toyota/Lexus production facilities in Japan too.
More proof you don’t know what goes on in the trenches. Such idiotic statements speak of a total lack of knowledge. Japanese companies do not have people from the US or Europe overing them like that. > Quality starts with product knowledge, not TQM, or Six-Sigma.
Finally you say something correct. But the best design in the world has to be made to spec. > It is > laughable to attribute a focus on quality to any particular ethnic > culture.
No one has. But there are trends of quality in given NATIONAL cultures. The chinese engineers I worked with in the USA shared the frustration for the practices in mainland china for instance. > These companies adopted all that was > good from the USA, Germany, where ever else. These companies listened > while companies like GM didn’t. > Yeah, there is no way the Japanese could have come up with anything > original on their own <rolling eyes>.
That’s not what I said, king of straw. I said they adopted what was good. That doesn’t mean they didn’t do anything on their own. quite the opposite in fact.
>> I would be surprised if they didn’t. That doesn’t mean they don’t have > to watch over them. I worked for a company on the same order of Siemens, > with the same sort of quality reputation. > In any production process you have to watch over the quality. It > doesn’t matter whether it occurs in the US or China, or Germany.
Funny, the effort to get parts that met spec out of the US was many orders of magnitude below that of china. Germany was a little less than the US. And once the quality was there, it didn’t go away. In China, the problem would be solved, the reappear a week or two later when they went back to doing things the way they wanted. > The > notion that manufacturing in China could only be "at the very best, > ordinary" is laughable. What if I told you that they were down to a > six sigma level of quality? Still ordinary?
Six sigma is a paperwork joke of image. Just like the image you attempt above. A buzzword. All the mainland china parts and assemblies I’ve seen were sig-sigma *wink* *wink*. It’s real easy when the inspection reports come out of china. I forgot, you believe those inspection reports are honest. I suggest you get some measuring equipment and start doing it yourself. > > They are unacceptable in my industry too. Yet we still somehow manage > > to manufacture in China. > Spoken again like someone who isn’t in the trenches and doesn’t get the > beat down on them because the mainland china molder started heating the > resin so hot it was like shooting water to up their cycle time, AGAIN. > Hehe. Sounds like you were asleep at the wheel. If you do not have > the resources to MONITOR the facility, the least you could do would be > to select a large reputable vendor.
Again, where you gonna get a few hundred engineers from the USA willing to live in industrial, cut through the air with a knife, mainland china?
>> > Yet they are still nowhere near the skill and expertise level of a > > US/CDN/Euro trained engineer. They are merely used as grunts. > Finance people don’t care about that. Neither do CEOs, neither does > wall-street. > In my experience, PRC engineers are used as grunts. Junior engineers. > The senior engineers have the real experience and credentials from a > notable institution.
So? An engineer is an engineer to those concerned about cost. Exeperience and knowledge is irrelvant.
>> >> I can tell you’ve never worked on development of a product sourced > >> and assembled in china. > > I work with 100s of these products every day. > But you are clearly not the engineer designing the parts and going > through the first article inspections, doing the quality tests, etc > etc. > Yeah, I do more than that. I’m part of the management team.
Damn I was spot on. > So I hear when things go wrong, and products are delayed.
You don’t hear every thing. Count on it. The engineers don’t even tell their immediate managers everything they deal with. > I read the reports submitted by the engineers.
After being approved by their manager. Try talking to them directly, being friends with them, going to lunch with them. Somehow being non-threating so they’ll talk openly in front of you. > I am involved in the > decision-making process of what to do. I work with all the > cross-functional areas. We do not behave unethically. We do not > approve any product we know has not passed the required tests. We do > not cheat or falsify safety reports.
How do you know that what you look at hasn’t been ’spun’? That the reports out china aren’t false? Often only the engineer and his direct manager knows the parts and report don’t match. There are deadlines to meet and correcting the tool just isn’t an option. I was so spot on it’s scary. > > Some suppliers are > > strong, some suppliers are weak. You have to manage them differently. > > If you don’t want to spend the effort managing the weaker suppliers, > > then source from somewhere else! > Yep you are part of the problem. You speak just like all the corporate > drones who push this crap. If you only had to live the life of the poor > engineer who gets stuck in a situation where he has to make the dates, > It doesn’t happen very often, but if the product is not right, my > company will delay the launch UNTIL it is right.
If you even know about it. > the parts don’t meet even internal company requirements, and he has > to push inspection and test reports he knows are lies through the system. > And then, be held responsible when the stuff blows up later. > Tsk, tsk. That’s terrible. YOU are the problem if you approve a > product you know is bad. As an engineer, you are the one standing > between the supplier and the consumer and have the professional duty > to reject a product, especially if it is safety-related. Just say NO. > Hehe.
If you only knew. I was one of the few who wouldn’t stand for bad product, who demanded tools were fixed, that we use good suppliers, etc etc etc. It’s political sucide is what it is. I just didn’t care about that. I cared about the product. Most people however care about their jobs more than their integrity and do as they are told and do what it takes to keep their jobs. Like the experience daniel posted, mine was similiar, I was over-ridden and the product pushed through. Of course there were some other nasty aspects I’m not going to discuss. When the information gets to you, it is most certainly neatly spun and dried. Get down in the trenches, get the engineers to speak freely to you off the record. I’ll wager they will have experiences more like daniel and myself. > > The amount of vigilance required for the QA function in any large > > factory making reputable products anywhere in the world *SHOULD* be > > enormous. > Another statement that shows you know the buzz words but were never > in the trenches. > Brent, please. Repeating the same non-sequitur does not improve the > quality of the argument. We will be making clean-air 2 cycle engines > in China. Upon showing the quality of the machining of the pistons to > a major US manufacturer of engines, the engineer admitted that his > pistons, sourced from the US weren’t as good. That’s what happens > when you invest in the right type of equipment and have the right > quality systems in place.
That’s nice. But machining of that nature is an automated process. It’s equipment driven. All that appears to have occured is that a better CNC machine was set up in the china facility. I’ll wager that was done to be close to the casting operation….. > >> If the product is ODM’d and a name > >> just put on it, the process is even more difficult. > > Nonsense. The process is much easier. The ODM products still have to > > pass the brand’s in-house quality tests. If the supplier can’t > > achieve the quality, it’s simply sourced from elsewhere. > *laugh* Put the lab that tests them in china > Yes, we have test-labs in China. Stocked with the right equipment. > Totally independent from the manufacturing, and the sourcing > functions. There is no incentive for the lab test manager to lie or > falsify reports.
I am sure you believe that. And it doesn’t have to falsified reports, just the test proceedures and the people running the tests. I’ve had product tested in china with the ‘right equipment’ etc etc and get much different results from the testing in the USA. Even when nothing was falisfied. > And once it’s all tooled up there is too > much time invested. You can’t just walk away and make your dates, your > commitments. If you did product development, you would know that. The > ODMs know that. > ODM products can be sourced product that are already past the product > development stage, which makes evaluation simple. Likewise, for > products in the product development stage, you would chose the > supplier that has the complementary assets to ensure design, and > production are seamless. I cannot understate how important it is to > deal with reputable companies.
None of this invalidates my statement that once the tooling is done, etc etc, when the product is being tested, it is impossible just to pick up and walk away.
>> They are located in Hong Kong. Didn’t I just get through saying that > the tooling is done in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, etc and MOVED > to mainland china. Hong Kong != mainland china. If you did product > development you’d know that. > Haha. And didn’t I just say that most manufacturers in China have > holding companies in Hong Kong? They do this for financial and tax > reasons. Allied’s office might be in HK, but they BUILD their tools > in China. If you were experienced with sourcing from China, you’d know > that.
I get the feeling you don’t even know where they do their tooling. But take a molder like nypro. The tooling is done in hong kong then moved to a production facility in china. same with TGP/WGP. > Their website has no information on their tolerance capabilities > nor any mention of medical equipment. Nothing special here. > I believe that will be up by the end of next week. In the meantime > send them an email and ask. They just delivered a medical grade tool > to a major customer.
Come on, they’ll tell me anything I want to hear, that’s the culture. I don’t know of single one of these sorts of companies where the running joke of ‘we can do it’ doesn’t apply. I’d have to spend a $100K with them before I would really know what their abilities are.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> And my point (which it appears you agree with, I’m only restating for >> others) is that the complaints against manufacturing have nothing to >> do with the ethnicity of the people making the product. For the >> people complaining about your comments being racially biased, I was >> making it clear that the comments may be nationalist (since they are >> about China), but are not about the ethnicity of the people, as you >> clearly understand that people of the same race make fine products >> outside the country in question. >Really? Do you not see any bias when one attempts to demean another >culture by using words such as Western "babysitters," "7 yr olds and >political prisoners" (as if this is even commonplace) and suggesting >that many cultures do not have the Western concept of quality, while >ignoring other factors (such as income-level) and the fact that >Western suppliers have also put out some really crappy products. > Like during Stalin’s time, industrialization is being forced upon the > people. Inefficient and imprecise product is natural in the face of > such outside pressures and underpaid/underskilled workers.
This is absolutely incorrect. Chinese citizens are some of the most hard-working, motivated people I’ve come across. Capitalism is everywhere, and everyone is trying to sell something. The factory workers are amazingly productive. IMO, you can never get the same productivity out of a N.A. or even a worker in Mexico. As for "underskilled," these workers are trained for their jobs, which they perform with great accuracy and consistency. Bad quality is usually the result of poor product or assembly design, not the worker. >Does a Japanese visitor to a US factory who notices the obesity, lower >productivity and literacy have the right to call American workers "fat >and lazy…and stupid too!"? No prejudice there, right? > Correct prejudice is not bad (if you like, I will go into a lengthy > discussion of why prejudice is necessary and desirable to be able to > function in society).
Actually, it’s fine with me if the original posters acknowledged their prejudices. However, to make obviously demeaning statements attributed to ethnic cultural factors, while touting Western supremecy and all the while claiming to be unprejudiced is what I consider to be distasteful. > However, this has nothing to do with the workers. I took > "babysitters" to mean "independent QC." That you took it as a racial > epithet would mean to me that you are high strung.
And the insinuation of the word "babysit" to refer to supervising of a particular adult ethnic population by Westerners is not demeaning? Since the > discussion was regarding western companies building in China, it would > be natural that the outside QC be provided from westerners of the > origin of the HQs country. I see nothing sinister in that.
No. Nor is the supervisory relationship in any functional area. Yet, you wouldn’t call that "babysitting." > Add in the *proof* of children and slaves working in the factories > (unless you don’t count the admission of the gvt to this as proof), > and I can’t see how it is racist.
Firstly, every society in its development stage used underage workers. That’s why we have age laws in N.A. But to imply that it is common to find children and slaves working in a Chinese factory is a great stretch. It is, in fact, exceedingly rare. To imply that China cannot make anything functional beyond labels is demeaning. > The government in China seems quite proud that they can force slaves > to work and the people in the US will buy the products. The US gvt in > the pockets of business don’t care. They threaten rescinding "most > favored nation" trading status, but it is always an idle threat > because the American business make money off the exploited in China.
Marc, there are over a billion people in China. *Legit* inexpensive labour is not difficult to find. No reputable company should have to source from a factory employing such labour. > I think that speaks worse about the Americans than the Chinese. Is > that racist?
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make. The Western world is exploiting China, and other underdeveloped countries. It is a win-win for both countries, but a far, far greater win for the West. Chip
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > What assurance do I have that the name brand rotors at 2.5-5X the >> > price wouldn’t have come from the same damn plant in China or wherever >> > they’re made? >> Have you got at least one functional eye? How ’bout fingers, have you got >> some of them? Can you read English words? Dandy! Open up the box and read >> what is cast into the rotor. > You claim they fake certification, what makes you think they wouldn’t > fake country of origin? (I know that this does happen.) > When I lived in HK, I went to a factory where they made knock offs > of expensive Italian shoes. When I asked about the "made in Italy" > labels being glued into the inner sole I was told (in Chinese) "The > labels were imported from Italy so it’s OK."
That’s just what they tell the gweilos. Hehe. Don’t kid yourself, the labels are made in China too. In China, the same factory will make various grades of knock-offs of the same product. The best knock-offs will be called "A-quality," and will display a label of a notable Western country. I heard a story about a Western buyer visiting a factory in China making cutlery which was being stamped "Made in Germany." He immediately confronts the factory manager and asks him, "How come it says Made in Germany?" Without hesitation, the factory manager answers, "Don’t worry. Can say, made anywhere!" Hahahahahahahhah! This was a HUGE factory > that did business with some of the larger American and European shoe > companies. I had similar experiences with exporters of raw materials > such as wood and plastics in China. > It’s a systemic problem.
…you gotta admire that kind of flexibility. Chip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cheers, > C
> That’s just what they tell the gweilos. Hehe. Don’t kid yourself, > the labels are made in China too. In China, the same factory will > make various grades of knock-offs of the same product. The best > knock-offs will be called "A-quality," and will display a label of a > notable Western country.
Seems you know about that. Do you know about the home production where factory workers get the materials and assemble/sew the products together at home and then sell them for extra personal cash? > I heard a story about a Western buyer visiting a factory in China > making cutlery which was being stamped "Made in Germany." He > immediately confronts the factory manager and asks him, "How come it > says Made in Germany?" > Without hesitation, the factory manager answers, "Don’t worry. Can > say, made anywhere!" Hahahahahahahhah!
And knowing this, you try to convince us that there aren’t problems that it’s all our imagination and our own failures. You believe that the orgin labels can be falsified but don’t believe that simple test reports can’t be? Come now. We’ll you just slipped into that rank of people who know what really happens, who know better, but cover it up.
look in the back of the back of german car magazines roundel i believe. there is an add for $50 you get a light reset tool, and for $150 you get the reset and diagnostic computer with codes and the booklet.
I found a page with good instructions and pictures… http://www.unofficialbmw.com/e36/electrical/e36_reset_service_lights….
> This is reset by a mechanic with a diagnostic tool. > That said, I saw a procedure once on how to build a Reset Tool from a 35mm
film can and a switch > from Radio Shack. I was at a Barnes&Noble Bookstore in the automotive
section and spotted a good > book about BMWs. I was not able to find the correct connector on my car to
plug this device into, so > I never built it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all > I just got hold of a 1994 BMW 325i [e36?] with high mileage for a good > price. The car is way over the motorplan mileage and there is no service > book to stamp… I have always carried out my own mechanical maintenance on > my vehicles, built race engines etc. so I have serviced the car myself. > However this service indicator light on the dash stays on the red… > Can someone direct me to a site with instructions on how to reset this > light? > Thankyou very much…
Hi all I just got hold of a 1994 BMW 325i [e36?] with high mileage for a good price. The car is way over the motorplan mileage and there is no service book to stamp… I have always carried out my own mechanical maintenance on my vehicles, built race engines etc. so I have serviced the car myself. However this service indicator light on the dash stays on the red… Can someone direct me to a site with instructions on how to reset this light? Thankyou very much…
This is reset by a mechanic with a diagnostic tool. That said, I saw a procedure once on how to build a Reset Tool from a 35mm film can and a switch from Radio Shack. I was at a Barnes&Noble Bookstore in the automotive section and spotted a good book about BMWs. I was not able to find the correct connector on my car to plug this device into, so I never built it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all > I just got hold of a 1994 BMW 325i [e36?] with high mileage for a good > price. The car is way over the motorplan mileage and there is no service > book to stamp… I have always carried out my own mechanical maintenance on > my vehicles, built race engines etc. so I have serviced the car myself. > However this service indicator light on the dash stays on the red… > Can someone direct me to a site with instructions on how to reset this > light? > Thankyou very much…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Hey I was watching Car and Driver this weekend and they were doing a segment > > > on gm’s new mid-sized sport utilities. There were three of them that were > > > designed to oust the explorer. All three of them they test drove featured > > > a inline six. I just thought that it was kinda neat that they chose to use > > > this particular motor config. I know there was a good debate awhile back on > > > two of the diff types of six cylinders. > > IIRC, it’s a 4.2L DOHC I-6 which makes around 275 horsepower. That’s > > pretty impressive, especially from GM. What I want to see is if these > > engines are smooth and refined like a BMW or typical GM thrashy (I’m > > leaning toward the latter). > Define "thrashy." I’ve always found the performance of GM engines to be > quite good, without lots of extra noise and vibration. I suppose if you > spend $40K for a vehicle with 60 less hp than a GM, you have to come up > with some put down to make yourself feel like your money was well > spent. Give GM some credit where credit is due. They have a number of > very successful engines, including the recent I-6. > Of course this is a truck engine of much larger displacement. That > engine would of course not meet normal emission standards for a car, > nevermind the TLEV/ULEV, and they have their own CAFE for trucks as > well.
Displacement is irrelevant. What matters are the overall dimensions of the engine and its weight. The engine already meets LEV standards, and they should be able to squeeze lower emissions out of it (who would release a brand new engine that couldn’t meet upcoming more stringent emission requirements?). BMW makes nice cars, that doesn’t mean they are the only ones who know how to build an engine. Jeff
My first boss had a short bed PU that had the original GM I6. It was torquey enough to pull a house, albeit slowly. It used to run out of oil or water at least once a month, but never blew up. Amazing engine, that. I’ve never appreciated an engine more than that, except for the week where my lovely wife ran our 5.7L Suburban with very little water due to a leaking (when running only) water pump. She kept wondering why the performance would drop markedly after it "warmed" up. She finally remembered to tell me after about 7 or 8 days of this behaviour. Didn’t even need a head gasket. Whew! Eric D 95 M3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey I was watching Car and Driver this weekend and they were doing a segment > on gm’s new mid-sized sport utilities. There were three of them that were > designed to oust the explorer. All three of them they test drove featured > a inline six. I just thought that it was kinda neat that they chose to use > this particular motor config. I know there was a good debate awhile back on > two of the diff types of six cylinders. > — > We as humans can be defined by where we get our pleasure from. Whether it > be from another’s pleasure or another’s pain.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > Hey I was watching Car and Driver this weekend and they were doing a segment > > > > on gm’s new mid-sized sport utilities. There were three of them that were > > > > designed to oust the explorer. All three of them they test drove featured > > > > a inline six. I just thought that it was kinda neat that they chose to use > > > > this particular motor config. I know there was a good debate awhile back on > > > > two of the diff types of six cylinders. > > > IIRC, it’s a 4.2L DOHC I-6 which makes around 275 horsepower. That’s > > > pretty impressive, especially from GM. What I want to see is if these > > > engines are smooth and refined like a BMW or typical GM thrashy (I’m > > > leaning toward the latter). > > Define "thrashy." I’ve always found the performance of GM engines to be > > quite good, without lots of extra noise and vibration. I suppose if you > > spend $40K for a vehicle with 60 less hp than a GM, you have to come up > > with some put down to make yourself feel like your money was well > > spent. Give GM some credit where credit is due. They have a number of > > very successful engines, including the recent I-6.
(My apologies if I screw up the quoting; my news server didn’t receive the original post.) First of all, I don’t own either a BMW or a GM, so I’m not trying to justify my purchase or anything. I’m just speaking from my experiences with recent GM cars and trucks. (FWIW, I drive a ‘99 Proteg
Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or where I can get schematics for this
Try this site! Hope it helps! http://www.soundcorecords.com/ax84/home.html Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
Single coils are generally better than humbuckers for ska….a stock Fender single coil (or other single coil) is good. Play clean through a Fender Twin and you pretty much have it. Might want to experiment with some slapback… but most ska bands have a keyboard or horns that can hold up the sustain part of the sound, and the guitar (at rhythm) is mostly on the upbeat, clean, and provide a counterpoint to the mix. Then if you have a lead, kick in the tubescreamer. – FH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
Most topic divergences follow at least a minimum of seemingly logical progression. How did this particular leap into hyperspace occur? Reply to the wrong message perhaps? Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Single coils are generally better than humbuckers for ska….a stock > Fender single coil (or other single coil) is good. Play clean through a > Fender Twin and you pretty much have it. > Might want to experiment with some slapback… but most ska bands have a > keyboard or horns that can hold up the sustain part of the sound, and the > guitar (at rhythm) is mostly on the upbeat, clean, and provide a > counterpoint to the mix. > Then if you have a lead, kick in the tubescreamer. > – FH > Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
> Most topic divergences follow at least a minimum of seemingly logical > progression. How did this particular leap into hyperspace occur? Reply to the > wrong message perhaps? > Steve
Yup…it was to a post right below the valve amp question (at least in my reader). Steve
Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Most topic divergences follow at least a minimum of seemingly logical > progression. How did this particular leap into hyperspace occur? Reply to > the > wrong message perhaps? > Steve > Yup…it was to a post right below the valve amp question (at least in > my reader). > Steve
> Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended.
I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" gets to be offended at *anything*.
> > Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > gets to be offended at *anything*.
The last time I listened to Doctor Demento, there was a great song on there called or about fishheads. I’m not sure if Doctor Demento is on any stations in my area at the moment. On the Simpsons, one time Homer was singing the fishhead song, the time where they discovered that Bart was actually the Evil twin, so they let Hugo out of the attic and locked Bart up there. They fed the evil twin fishheads. One of Marge’s best lines: "Eat your fishheads, then we’ll talk" Pete — I’ve been shoved off better doorsteps than yours, I can assure you –Mr. Natural
fishheads fishheads rolly polly fishheads fishheads fishheads eat them up yum / I had a fishhead took him to a movie they don’t eat ice cream they can’t play drums …. .. something like that . …. it was a cool "short subject" flick too ,I always thought it was NFB (CDN) ?? It was in heavy rotation in the early ’80s on Rogers "pay TV" … that’s why I assumed it was cancon . I wish we could tune in Dr. Demento in Canada …… dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it > > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > gets to be offended at *anything*. > The last time I listened to Doctor Demento, there was a great song on > there called or about fishheads. I’m not sure if Doctor Demento is on > any stations in my area at the moment. > On the Simpsons, one time Homer was singing the fishhead song, the time > where they discovered that Bart was actually the Evil twin, so they let > Hugo out of the attic and locked Bart up there. They fed the evil twin > fishheads. One of Marge’s best lines: "Eat your fishheads, then we’ll > talk" > Pete > — > I’ve been shoved off better doorsteps than yours, > I can assure you –Mr. Natural
> fishheads fishheads > rolly polly fishheads > fishheads fishheads > eat them up yum / > I had a fishhead took him to a movie > they don’t eat ice cream > they can’t play drums ….
That’s it! > .. something like that . > …. it was a cool "short subject" flick too ,I always thought it was NFB (CDN) ?? > It was in heavy rotation in the early ’80s on Rogers "pay TV" …
that’s why I assumed > it was cancon . > I wish we could tune in Dr. Demento in Canada …… > dw
The Doctor comes and goes in the Chicago area. I don’t listen to the radio much anymore, it’s something you have to be lucky enough to stumble on, or hopefully they’ll tell you about it’s being there on another show. It might have been a saturday morning show on the AM last time I heard it. But you hear it a few times and you get hooked by some of the stuff. You know, there might be an odd posiblity that he’s on web radio somewhere. Hmmmmm… Pete Before you buy.
Barnes and Barnes did that one. Billy Mummy (of "Lost in Space" fame) was the "brains" behind the group. Anyways, I actually preferred "High-School Gym" which was the flip side to the "Fish heads" single. God, I miss the days of "B" sides – sigh! – Punkerdubh (it’s pretty sad that I’ve got brain cells devoted to this dreck) Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! In the morning, laughing, happy fish heads. In the evening, floating in the soup. Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! Ask a fish head anything you want to they wont answer they can’t talk. Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! I took a fish head out to see a movie didnt have to pay to get it in. Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! They don’t play baseball, they don’t wear sweaters they’re not good dancers, they dont play drums!! Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! Rolly polly fish heads are never seen drinking capuccino in Italian restaurants with oriental women!!!!! Yeah! Fish heads fish heads, rolly polly fish heads fish heads fish heads, eat them up, yum! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > fishheads fishheads > rolly polly fishheads > fishheads fishheads > eat them up yum / > I had a fishhead took him to a movie > they don’t eat ice cream > they can’t play drums …. > .. something like that . > …. it was a cool "short subject" flick too ,I always thought it was NFB (CDN) ?? > It was in heavy rotation in the early ’80s on Rogers "pay TV" … that’s why I assumed > it was cancon . > I wish we could tune in Dr. Demento in Canada …… > dw > > > Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it > > > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. > > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > > gets to be offended at *anything*. > The last time I listened to Doctor Demento, there was a great song on > there called or about fishheads. I’m not sure if Doctor Demento is on > any stations in my area at the moment. > On the Simpsons, one time Homer was singing the fishhead song, the time > where they discovered that Bart was actually the Evil twin, so they let > Hugo out of the attic and locked Bart up there. They fed the evil twin > fishheads. One of Marge’s best lines: "Eat your fishheads, then we’ll > talk" > Pete > — > I’ve been shoved off better doorsteps than yours, > I can assure you –Mr. Natural
> > Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass about it > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > gets to be offended at *anything*.
Could be a real family name. You never know. Steve Before you buy.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Same here. I just thought it was funny and decided to be a smartass > about it > > No offense to Mr. Fishhead intended. > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > gets to be offended at *anything*. > Could be a real family name. You never know. > Steve
Their family reunions would stink. At Fishhead weddings, instead of throwing rice, people would squeeze lemons over the bride & groom. Pete — I’ve been shoved off better doorsteps than yours, I can assure you –Mr. Natural
> > > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > > gets to be offended at *anything*. > Could be a real family name. You never know. > Their family reunions would stink. At Fishhead weddings, instead of > throwing rice, people would squeeze lemons over the bride & groom.
And they’d all be union, coz they’d get paid scale.
Check this link: http://www.firebottle.com/ampage/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
> Check this link: http://www.firebottle.com/ampage/ > Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
or http://www.ax84.com — C’ya Steve aka ZaGhost Musician Page -> http://www.onlinerock.com/musicians/zaghost/ UT Crosshairs -> http://www.accesswave.ca/~seburges/ ICQ 3839381 Running Intel Free
G’day. This is a repost of an earlier post…. If you want to build your own, read all these pages, & then you’ll have a good idea of what you want to do next. http://soundcorecords.com/ax84/ http://soundcorecords.com/htac/ http://www.ampage.org/ http://www.blueguitar.org/ http://www.triodeel.com/ http://www.angela.com/ http://stores.yahoo.com/torresengineering/index.html These guys only have a bit in the tech dept. but their links page is very extensive. http://www.tubesandmore.com/ & here are a few other Amp forums & list servers… http://anzamps.listbot.com/ http://boards.eesite.com/board.cgi?boardset=ampworks http://vintageamps.com/cgibin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl I have other links to suppliers, schematics & vintage radio stuff but this is more than enough to get you started. Catchya, Cliff
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone let me have any information on how to build a valve amp or > where I can get schematics for this
> > > > I don’t think anyone posting under "fishhead" > > > gets to be offended at *anything*. > > Could be a real family name. You never know. > Their family reunions would stink. At Fishhead weddings, instead of > throwing rice, people would squeeze lemons over the bride & groom. > And they’d all be union, coz they’d get paid scale.
The Fisheads would all have a strict upbringing, because everybody knows that the Scales of Justice are rather final for the fish families. You know, old FH was one heavy dude till he got his lips pierced. Now he just hangs out on the wall of some bar. Pete Before you buy.